Thanks for creating some content about minor league ballparks. Keep it up. I've added internal links and changed some phrasing to be less casual and more encyclopedic. Also, please note that photo credits should be on the image's page, not on the page where it is used. Philippe (talk) 13:49, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
Thank you! My real work demands I write to the common person, but I'll try to be more formal. I have lots - something written on more than 250 parks including all that were active between 2011 and 2019. I've seen games in every current and many historic minor-league stadiums, which is how this "hobby " started. After I upload all of that I may just get to work researching other historic parks and adding them in. I used to do this for MapMuse, and I turned that data into the book I published last year. I kept the data up since the publishing because of MapMuse, but it has unfortunately gone dark for whatever reason. I kept the data current in the hope of finding some other use for it, and maybe just to stay in the know. I was (selfishly) pleased to see that some of the minors' parks were way out of date; I'm starting by finding those whose names have changed and updating that while adding my (edited) content. It's just a matter of finding the time to input and upload it all - this is more coding than I'm used to, but I think I'm getting the hang of it. I haven't made a point of pictures and would have to learn how to upload them. I may have accidentally separated the photo and photo credit you mention; there were pix in most if not all of what I re-worked yesterday. I'll try to avoid doing that. One thing I've wondered - would it be OK to add a stadium name/link to the text box of the year-by-year entries for the teams that played in them? (Another massive undertaking - but would it be a good service to the user?) Now let's see if I've figured out how to sign one of these: PatrickMSullivan (talk) 19:11, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
Keep it up, Patrick. I'm going through your additions adding some internal links, etc, but keeping all of what you wrote. For pictures, you must first upload them to the site (see the "upload file" button normally in the left hand column next to the active window. You can then add them to a specific page using simple coding (see how it's done on any page featuring a picture for an example). Credits and so on go on the page where the picture is uploaded. For most minor league teams, we do not have seasonal pages, so the main place where the ballpark name is mentioned is at the top of the team page, below affiliation history, with years in use (many, many are missing, so your help there is welcome). Please don't hesitate to ask any me any other questions you come up with. Philippe (talk) 16:53, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
Hello, Philippe. My apologies for my long absence; I've been reworking my 250-odd stadiums for use here. In their previous use, most entries had some mix of stadium and team history; I'm trying to separate those to post stadium stuff in the stadium and maybe add some of my leftover copy to the team entries. Also, I was about to edit Pohlman Field in Beloit when it reminded me I've been meaning to ask in advance: What's in a name, and how do we handle it? There is more ... fluidity ... to stadium names than I'd have thought until I got so into this. 1) There are a few places where the team and the (usually local municipal) stadium owner don't agree on a name - e.g. Stockton Ballpark v. Banner Island Ballpark. 2) There's the issue of which or either or both when there are separate field and stadium names - e.g. Scotiabank Field at Nat Bailey Stadium. 3) If a stadium is named after a person, should the first name be used? I hesitate to change names because it will change alphabetization, but I think there should be as much uniformity as possible. (For example, I just had to use the search function because I was trying to find "Pohlman Field" rather than "Harry C. Pohlman Field".) What I settled on in MapMuse was to defer to the stadium's main signage, because that's what folks see there. Will that work for you? I want to hold off on Pohlman pending your answer, but I did just make one edit updating some outdated material.
- I think for the stadiums, its usually best to just use the most common official name, with redirects. i.e. Pohlman Field is a redirect for Harry C. Pohlman Field. Jeff (talk) 03:15, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
Hello, Jeff and Philippe - That was my original belief, but the question becomes what's official. I was floored when I went to a Stockton Ports game and saw the signage read STOCKTON BALLPARK - because all the literature I'd seen (including the team website) said it was Banner Island Ballpark. And I reflected - well, wouldn't the owner have the right to decide the name? And isn't the owner the city of Stockton? Meanwhile, it took me a while to realize the new (2012) stadium in Pensacola didn't even HAVE a name! There were at least three other similar cases, not to mention the field/stadium names like Vancouver, and eventually I settled on what the fans see - the actual signage - as the most logical way to have a consistent policy. I have been to every one (I didn't have the option of redirects in my previous usage, and they will be a useful tool, but I still think it would be best for the name people see the same name on the stadium and at the top of our entry.)
- Don't remove the [[ ]] from pages. These create links to other pages. ''' ''' does not create links. It only Bolds text. Jeff (talk) 01:08, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
Also, with regard to teams, I suggest recognizing and clarifying the recent wholesale changes to Minor League Baseball with a standardized opening phrase that would act as a bridge: This former International League franchise/city/club ... do you like that idea?
- Yes, that can work. There's a rumor that the new league names (i.e Double A-Northeast) are just placeholders and that new names, likely sponsored one, will be announced at some point. Philippe (talk) 15:16, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
I remember reading that, Philippe, and in the same piece that it was an ongoing argument inside MLB. That was in January, and I assumed - but there's that word - that the decision had been made when teams started coming out with schedules calling their circuits by the new names. (IMO they're boring - funny thing is, I used to joke and jibe about the MANY contradictions between the old names and the league makeups.) Now that you mention it, it does seem possible this could still be under discussion. I wouldn't think they'd change during mid-season, though, do you?
You know, I'd forgotten that article mentioned sponsored names. That says they could even change again.
- To get back to the names issue, sometimes, as you explain, it's hard to figure out what the official ballpark name is. Try to use the one on the team's official website (they always have a tab that shows their ballpark's seating plan, dimensions and directions for getting there). If even that includes more than one name, or no name at all, pick the one you deem most appropriate (your suggestion of going by the physical signage is a good one), and create redirects to it from the other variants you can find. Philippe (talk) 14:55, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
Hey Jeff, I only removed - or at least only intentionally removed - [[ ]] when they go around something that shows in red instead of blue. Doesn't that mean the target is gone? PatrickMSullivan (talk) 01:28, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
- If its red, that means there's nothing at that page. But that doesn't always mean it shouldn't be linked. If its notable, and we do need to create the page at some point, its fine to have a "broken" (i.e. red) link. Jeff (talk) 02:18, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
Ah, thank you. The irony is I put [] around Quint Studer thinking he'd have an entry and pulled them when he popped up red. If BR does anything with minors owners, he probably deserves one. PatrickMSullivan (talk) 17:33, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
Patrick, could you merge CooperStadium, which you just created, with Cooper Stadium, which already existed, i.e. take the new info you added and move it into the appropriate places in the existing article. You can then delete CooperStadium, as it's a typo. Thanks. (You can delete this when done). Philippe (talk) 01:41, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
Yes, I noticed that almost immediately and saw this message right after I finished editing them together. Apologies, I forgot the _. How do I delete a page?
Sorry, I thought I added to that page. Maybe moving the page to change the name had an unintended consequence. I'm about to fly, but I'll try to check that tonight. Thanx. I don't think I was aware the O's had two teams, but I'm trying to write around giving any specific number. The number of complex teams, including multiples of the same parent (maybe we should call them "sibling" teams?") changes so often it's hard to stay accurate with it. I think the reorg will only increase that. PatrickMSullivan (talk) 18:52, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
Between planes. Looks as if you undid what I did. I've been putting off complex teams for just this reason. I also see the O's only just this year went to two teams. If someone has the time and desire to watch those, great - I'll leave those teams to you and whomever. Reverting FCL Orioles to GCL Orioles, though - there is no GCL anymore. Are the teams still going by GCL Whatever? PatrickMSullivan (talk) 22:07, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
- Its no different than when the New Orleans Zephyrs became the New Orleans Baby Cakes. We didn't move Zephyrs and leave a re-direct to Baby Cakes. They're both still here. All of the old GCL teams are still here, and all of the new FCL team are also here. Jeff (talk) 07:48, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
- So one page listing all of each complex league's teams. I like that. I don't mean to demean them, but that level hardly fits into a fan's concept of a day at the ballpark anyway. They don't sell concessions or merch or have PA and don't even usually play in the main stadium. Again, I'll let someone else keep it up to date; they change almost willy-nilly. I think the Jersey Shore (nee Lakewood) BlueClaws would be a better example than New Orleans, because they changed their locale name rather than their nickname, but I see your point. It IS the same franchise. I thought we did redirect on name changes, though. Actually, I guess I've seen it both ways. We should be consistent about that, but I don't know how to accomplish that with multiple people inputting. Still new around here. As laid out in my book, the franchise is the key; you can't play without one! The franchise is the instrument conveyed by the league that lets the team operator play in the league. For example, barring an upheaval such as what MLB just put us through, teams do not go up and down in the hierarchy; a city changes levels because someone buys and moves a franchise. For example, the Nashville Sounds did not magically become a Triple-A team in 1985. Sounds ownership bought the Evansville Triplets, moving them to Nashville and the Sounds' Southern League franchise to Huntsville, AL. If it were up to me, entries would follow the franchise, use the current nickname in the team page's title, and include any previous nicknames in the body copy. Some entries here are that way, some are not. By the way, I saw an early post-reorg reference to the former Gulf Coast League as the Florida Coastal League. I don't recall where I saw that, so it may have been an outlet research or writing error. Or maybe MLB changed it to that and then thought better of it. Florida Complex League makes more sense, given that the Arizona League is now the Arizona Complex League. PatrickMSullivan (talk) 16:49, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
- Except that much of minor league history would be not covered accurately by following "franchises". Over the last 40-50 years, this would be work. Prior to that many minor leagues would replace one team that folded with another team. It was not the same franchise. I don't believe there are any US teams with re-directs, unless its a spelling thing i.e. Oklahoma City Redhawks. I think re-directs have been created in KBO or NPB maybe. There is a page for each GCL team, and there is a page for each FCL team. They'll be kept up to date, so if you don't want to worry about it, that's fine. Jeff (talk) 17:43, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
If "franchise" is used as it is actually defined, instead of referring to all iterations of a city's teams as "the franchise," it does work. It is inaccurate to refer to the Nashville Sounds as a franchise that has operated in Nashville since 1978. It is accurate to refer to the Nashville Sounds Double-A franchise that operated in Nashville 1978-84 and to the Nashville Sounds Triple-A franchise that has operated in Nashville 1985-present. It is inaccurate to say the Evansville Triplets don't exist - "history was retired" is the operative phrase at Wikipedia, and I don't even know how one retires a history; if it happened, it's history - after the 1984 season. It is accurate to say that franchise then moved to Nashville and has since operated as the Nashville Sounds. Another example: did you know the Boston Red Sox have been affiliated with the same Triple-A franchise for nearly six straight decades? After breaking up in 1947, they and the Toronto Maple Leafs of the International League reconnected in 1965. That franchise moved to Louisville, Ky., in 1968 and played there as the Louisville Colonels through 1972. In 1973, that franchise moved to Pawtucket, R.I., and played there through 2019 as the Pawtucket Red Sox. That's the franchise that just moved to Worcester. The franchise is essentially a license issued by the league. Even when franchises change leagues, they actually don't. When the High Desert Mavericks and Bakersfield Blaze were shifted from the California League to the Carolina League, the actual process was that the California League contracted those two franchises, the Carolina League added two and assigned the new, or expansion, franchises to the operators of the now Down East Wood Ducks and the Fayetteville Woodpeckers. Even a team that loses its parent can play on as an independent if the league lets the operator keep the franchise - and often does, because scheduling is a problem with an odd number of teams playing nearly every day. Remember the Pocatello Pioneers? After losing a three-year affiliation with the Giants, they played eight seasons without a parent as the Gate City Pioneers, Pocatello Pioneers, and Lethbridge Mounties. These were all the same Pioneer League franchise. Franchise is synonymous with neither city nor team; this system is keyed not by the city or the team but by the franchise - just like in MLB. PatrickMSullivan (talk) 18:32, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
- For KBO or NPB teams, we have pages for each name, not for a given franchise. Ex. there is a page for the Haitai Tigers and Kia Tigers following the team's purchase by Kia. For European teams, since sponsors change so often, we've just left the team name (ex. Neptunus or Parma) usually. - Mischa (talk) 18:06, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
Let me try it this way: if you want to operatee a non-expansion team in any professional baseball league - affiliated or not - you have two options: 1) buy a team that HAS a franchise in the league you want to be in; 2) somehow take such a franchise away from someone who has it. This system is keyed not by the city or the team or the team's name but by the franchise. 01:47, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
- That really has nothing to do with the way we document the history. We document the Sacramento Solons and the Sacramento River Cats on separate pages here. It doesn't matter that they were both in the same city in the same league. We also document the River Cats and the Vancouver Canadians on separate pages. It doesn't matter that Vancouver was moved to Sacramento. Jeff (talk) 01:58, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
Patrick: I gather from your various contributions that BB&T Field (Charlotte) and Truist Park are the same place, so I've created a redirect and modified the Charlotte Knights page accordingly. Correct me if I'm wrong. Philippe (talk) 13:00, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
That's mostly correct, except this one's Truist Field. Sold names can get confusing in a couple of ways, especially with banks, and this managed to do both. As companies' brands change through sale or merger or just corporate whim, they often change their name for the stadium. Without looking it up to confirm, I believe the current home of the Harrisburg Senators has had three different names without changing the contract. In the Truist cases, all of the contracts on stadiums in Organized Baseball pre-date the name Truist - which was created in 2020 after BB&T and SunTrust Bank merged in 2019. The other thing is when one firm buys names on several ballparks and doesn't put the exact same brand on all of them. With Truist, SunTrust and BB&T:
HOME OF THE... PRE-TRUIST NAME CURRENT NAME Atlanta Braves SunTrust Park Truist Park (I haven't written anything there as I'm just doing the affiliated minors) Charlotte Knights BB&T Ballpark Truist Field Myrtle Beach Pelicans BB&T Coastal Field (expired 2011; BB&T got it by buying Coastal Federal Bank in 2008 and did not renew) Winston-Salem Dash BB&T Ballpark Truist Stadium Williamsport Crosscutters BB&T Ballpark at Historic Bowman Field (expired 2020; Truist did not renew)
I believe the Truist name is on some other sports facilities, but I'm only tracking stadiums in Organized Baseball.
Yesterday, I looked for Charlotte's stadium by Truist and then by BB&T and got only the other hits you'd expect from the above. Then I went to the Knights' team entry to click on the stadium name and got a do-you-want-to-create-a-page page. Not sure how I went wrong doing both, but I guess I did.
I would come to all these as I go, but I think I should step out of that and do, or at least check, all the Truist references. Conveniently, today's a holiday.
PS - I guess I'd better learn how to do columns, because they don't translate in line. If you open the edit box, though, I think you can see those names as I wrote them. PatrickMSullivan (talk) 16:11, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
- You can't do columns in html text; you have to do tables, which are more complex. In any case, the reason you hit upon "Do you want to create this page" is not a sign that you did anything wrong; it's simply that there was no page yet for that ballpark. You have now filled that hole. (I did redirect BBB& T/Charlotte to the right page; I just wrote it wrong on this page). Philippe (talk) 16:57, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
Excellent, thank you. I thought you fixed it awfully fast! I didn't consider the possibility that the stadium didn't have a page because it's in its seventh season, but I guess that must be it. PatrickMSullivan (talk) 17:24, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
Excellent work all around, Patrick. Maybe you should also try your hand at writing an article on Copa de la Diversión, as it seems to come up in almost every team article, and there seem to be plenty of news items about the promotion. Philippe (talk) 12:28, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
Thank you, sir! I have actually thought about doing that, but kinda thought someone with SOME LatinX background should. The volume is because something like half of MiLB teams are participating and I drop a line or two into the entry of any who's doing so. If no one's tackled it when I finish my current project, I'll be happy to work up a piece on it.
- It would be appreciated if you could do so. What would be needed is some background on what it consists of (a single game ? a series of games ?) and why it was put together. An extensive list of alternate identities for teams would be useful, but most important would be a couple of paragraphs explaining what the event is all about. Philippe (talk) 12:18, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
Your message reminded me I never answered your previous question. I didn't MEAN to ignore it, just let it it slip off my radar while thinking about it. When I was young(er), I probably qualified as a sports fanatic - but baseball drew me into the sports world, and as I aged I cared less and less about any other sport. I can remember being GLUED to the Olympics, but I haven't watched a live minute in at least two or three cycles now. I say all that so I can say this without destroying my baseball-specific credibility: I never heard of the cited athlete, so it didn't seem fair for me to vote on such a choice. PatrickMSullivan (talk) 02:25, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
- Don't worry if you've never heard about the subject of the article. Your input is sought about the quality of the article, and your experience as a writer is what is required here. In fact, your perspective as an outsider with no prior knowledge of the subject matter would be a useful one (i.e. if you still have major questions about the subject after reading it, then there's an issue which it would be useful to raise. Philippe (talk) 12:18, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
Geez, did I write "very unique"? I know better'n that!! (Thanx for catching that.)
Copa de la Diversion
Excellent work, Patrick. I've added the outline of a table. To add a line, just copy and paste the following two lines just below the last complete line, before the "|}" which constitutes a final line that ends the table. Go to edit to copy and paste properly:
|-align=center |Las Vegas Aviators||Reyes de Plata de Las Vegas || Las Vegas Silver Kings
replacing the names with those of the team you want to add. If you want to add another column, just add its title by adding !! (this creates a new column) and the names (for example First Year) in the line with the other column titles (which you can also modify if you want), and then on the individual team line, add the date after adding an || which moves the entry that follows into the next column.
p.s. you can now put square brackets around Copa de la Diversion (with or without the acute accent on the A whenever it first comes up in team articles, and it will lead straight to your newly-created page.
Thank you, Philippe. Just a quick try over lunch. I tried adding a line but the columns didn't square up. I've since read your instruction that might take care of that. I'll have time to experiment more thoroughly after work. Where a team has changed nicknames I'm going to need a couple of more columns. I trust that won't mess it? PatrickMSullivan (talk) 20:07, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
- I added in some empty lines that you can fill in. If a team changed alternate names, they can just be given 2 lines. Jeff (talk) 01:28, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
Yes, I think that would be simpler than adding columns. Good suggestion, thank you! [[ |PatrickMSullivan]] (talk) 12:49, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
- The table looks great! I've corrected a couple of the translations, although it's sometimes hard to get a perfect match as they're based on Spanish word-play in a few cases (just like a few of the names in English). Philippe (talk) 14:11, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
- Good teaching! I should probably back-check those translations, though. I based them on Google-translate, which I've learned is not foolproof, but I cross-checked what the teams said in their name descriptions and took a resulting liberty or two. For example, somebody's nickname translates to Masked Phenomena but their Copa entry says Masked Phenoms - which makes baseball sense. And the Charlotte Knights say Caballeros is Gentlemen. Google-translate returns Cabelleros for both Cavaliers and Gentlemen. I also realized today I should cross-check those names in the team entries to make sure they all match up. I'll do that when I add those links. Not sure I'll get to them this weekend - I'm on an outta town junket - but that's the next thing I'll do. Then I want to try to finish finding what stadiums in these that I've done ever hosted Negro Leagues baseball - that deserves to be in these entries.
Caballeros has many meanings (same in French too, the equivalent word being "chevalier"), but it's clearly a play on "Knights". The original meaning is "cavalier" (from caballo, which means horse). The meaning has then been extended to "gentleman", as you needed to be one to ride a horse, which is why you see "Damas" and Caballeros" on washroom doors in Spanish. So the team may say it's "gentlemen", but clearly that does not reflect the whole meaning. Philippe (talk) 14:23, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
- I was in the act of changing it back when I saw this. I would feel less strongly if Google-translate didn't return "gentlemen" so I added a clarification. Also, the team says it DOES play on Knights - a "gentlemanly horseman". Please take a look. Also, Rapidos returned rapids but the team gives a completely different tie. Rapid (singular) returned fast - not a noun, but all kinds of such grammatical liberties are taken in branding. However, I didn't much like Fasts either so I left that alone. Might add a clarification if I can think of one that isn't too complicated. Just bothers me that the team isn't going for rapids. I just added a link if you want to look at the teams' name statements.
Important note: when you link "Copa de la Diversión", place the brackets inside the quotation marks, not outside, or it will show up as a red link. I've changed a couple of them, but you know better which one you changed, so I'll let you make the corrections. (p.s. Fasts just sounded too much like what you do when you stop eating; Rapids has been used before as a team nickname. If you don't like it, it should be something like "Fast ones", but that's very clumsy). Philippe (talk) 14:41, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
Patrick: You've probably seen this already:  An article on Endeavour would be a useful addition if you can give it a try, as well as a mention on the pages of the various teams they are purchasing. I seem to recall you have already mentioned it on some team articles. Philippe (talk) 19:48, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
Philippe: Yes, BaseballAmerica reported last week it was about to happen. I didn't know who Endeavor was until I saw UFC referenced in stories today about the actual purchase. Hadn't thought about an article, but will. I don't think I've written anything here about Endeavor, specifically, but you may be thinking of other ownership references. I don't make a point of naming owners - mostly because I'm not sure most fans care - but when one becomes ... let's say interesting ... I do. Like Elmore Sports Group moving three franchises at once, or the St. Louis Cardinals seeing Memphis Redbirds attendance drop after they bought the club and rise again after they sold controlling interest. To Peter Freund, who is involved in Endeavor in some way or another. PatrickMSullivan (talk) 20:17, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
(I started a new sub-section to keep things clearer). I agree that most minor league owners, while notable by our standards, would not merit an article, but obviously a group that purchases a whopping 9 teams becomes so. Especially given their other endeavors (see what I did here) in the entertainment field. Philippe (talk) 15:02, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
Yes, thank you - I had a hard time finding the right copy in the editing box when I went to answer this yesterday. I think I will tackle Endeavor - yes, I see what you did there and I LOVE puns!! - but right off the bat I want to defer to your experience within B-R. Endeavor is an existing company that among other things owns UFC, but it created a new company - I'm not a businessman but I guess it would be subsidiary - called Diamond Baseball Holdings and THAT's the entity that bought all these teams. (In fact, UFC is owned not by Endeavor but by a company it owns called Zuffa.) I wish I could look into the future and see which name gets continuing play, but do you think we should create this page as Endeavor or as Diamond Baseball Holdings? I want to research this before writing, but I am unaware of any other entity that owns nine affiliated minor-league teams. Another interesting point will be that the purchased clubs include farm teams of the Braves, Cardinals, and Yankees - in a world in which 80% of teams were NOT owned by or commonly with their parents, those three MLB clubs were the ones who owned the most. And there's also the angle that the reorganization probably spurred this. Parent ownership of farm teams had been on the rise as MLB clubs escaped affiliations they didn't like by buying MiLB teams - but the amount of control the new system has handed to the parents, it seems to me, dilutes that reason for owning them. One thing I want to try to find out before writing is whether these sales are all outright. Many, probably most, existing baseball teams at both levels are owned by a group, with someone being the majority or principal owner. What I've read so far makes it seem, but does not explicitly say, that DBH as an entity is becoming the sole owner of these teams. PatrickMSullivan (talk) 22:51, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
Minor league reorganization
Thanks for the updates on the lawsuits by minor league teams. I've moved these paragraphs to the relevant team articles from the ballpark ones, however, as it is a more appropriate place for them (i.e. it is the teams who are suing MLB, not the ballparks). Philippe (talk) 13:00, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
Yes, thank you. This is what I call a V8 moment. (BONK!) When I was doing this at another site, I started out doing stadiums, but a lot of team info drifted into them. Over here, I separated the two for current team/stadium pairings except I also decided not to bother with stadiums that no longer had teams. Seemed logical - all in the past, what's gonna change? Never connected that to these lawsuits, but you're right - the stadiums aren't suing anybody! :-) PatrickMSullivan (talk) 23:00, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
I just noticed we're having some back-and-forth over punctuation. I thought I remembered seeing something about a style section at B/R, but if there is one I can't find it. Style is a tricky thing. People tend to dismiss disagreements about it as petty, but it has a good viable use: the more consistent copy is, the more organized and intelligent its writers appear. There are lots of guides, and if B-R has one I'll use it. Reluctantly, possibly, but "consistent" in this case should be "consistent with how B-R does it." As a professional writer who also edits others' work, let me just say a couple of things. Probably the three biggest guides are the AP Style Book, the Chicago Manual of Style and the (US) Government Printing Office's Style Guide. GPO is obviously for internal government writing; I just name it because so many use it. For our convo, the real choices - unless B-R has its own - are AP, the Bible of journalistic writing, or CMOS, the Bible of book-type publishing. They agree with each other on MOST things, but there some differences. For example, AP doesn't use the Oxford comma unless its lack renders the series unclear; CMOS uses the Oxford comma unless it similarly messes up the series. Another point of difference is at what level to go from spelled-out numbers to numerals; AP says 10, CMOS says 100. I've noted that we aren't consistent about that but I'm more used to writing AP and have been going that route. I don't recall noticing any fixing of those. A couple of other disagreements involve dates 'n' states: DATES - AP says to abbreviate the month (except the short ones) - Jan. 2, 2022 - while CMOS says spell it out - January 2, 2022; the other is years in series, with AP saying use four digits only when necessary - 1998-2002 but 2020-21. Neither suggests using ordinals in dates - January 2nd - but I've been doing that because Philippe does. STATES - in a city-state construct, AP says to spell out the state (a recent change; most of my career it was the old non-USPS abbs like Mich. or Wis.); e.g., - Nashville, Tennessee - but CMOS says to use the USPS two-letter - Nashville, TN. I've been trying to avoid this whole issue, but what's caught my eye is commas I'm using that I had noticed wiki writers tend not to. I just realized we've changed and changed back and changed back-back at least once. It's happening in date-year and city-state constructs - and on this BOTH AP and CMOS agree: unless such is followed by a period because it ends a sentence or by a dash, both the year and the state need a closing comma: I wrote on January/Jan. 2, 2022, about this and I was in New Orleans, LA/Louisiana, when I wrote about it. Not sure why wiki doesn't like those commas; as an old broadcaster, I can tell you one definitely pauses there. It's almost as if it were in apposition. If BR has a style doc I've missed, I'll follow it. If not, I recommend we pick one. It may be aggravatingly subliminal, but it's factually true that consistency conveys competence.PatrickMSullivan (talk) 20:26, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
- The style guide is the SABR one used for its publications. It can probably be found on its website (it's pretty short, and I got a copy when I published something in the Baseball Research Journal a few years ago). It includes things such as a date without a year uses the ordinal, but not if the year follows: ie he was called up on January 3rd, but he was born on January 3, 2022, and a game's score should always be written between a pair of commas ("the Dodgers led, 2-0, when ..."). Among quirks particular to this site is that months are written out in full, to failitate linking, and city names in the U.S. are followed by the two-letter state abbreviation (again, to facilitate linking). We don't use the Oxford comma unless absolutely necessary. For numbers, statistics are always written in number form: "he hit 10 homers on the year". For other numbers, there is not straight and fast rule, but smaller numbers should be spelled out, and longer ones not. It can get tricky at the individual game level: Joe Smith hit two homers during the game, or 2 homers? The former reads better, but in the case of John Doe pitched 1 1/3 inning, it's clearly a stat... And finally, it's alway 5th inning, not fifth inning and so forth Philippe (talk) 12:44, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
Ballpark name changes
When a ballpark changes names (as the one in Fredericksburg, VA just did), you should also try to update the related pages. For example, on the team page, you changed the name within the text but not in the first paragraph that contains basic info about the team, and you also did not change the template for High-A East ballparks. Small things, but important for the overall well-being of the site. Philippe (talk) 13:34, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
Or, maybe not. I have the first update since reading this that requires a name change, in this case on a former MiLB park, and to be safe I tried to change the name first. I'm not getting to where I can do so. The fact that changing a name is technically moving a page may be the problem, but I'm not figuring it out. If someone could put a how-to here or email it to me at firstname.lastname@example.org, I'll be happy to comply and continue.PatrickMSullivan (talk) 22:39, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
Thanx, Mischa, but I've moved several pages. At issue here is when I in effect change a stadium name by moving its page I haven't been changing its names in associated list references, like "Categories: Minor League Ballparks". So far, I haven't figured out how to do it. Thought I had, but when I tried to do one it didn't work.
You might have to do that manually unless you know how to set up a bot to do it (and I am no expert on bots to give advice there). Sorry I misunderstood the question. - Mischa (talk) 09:59, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
Thank you. I just saw the Jersey Shore stadium's name changed Friday. If you don't mind making sure I don't miss anything, I'd just made those adjustments in its copy and saw your message while I was going in to move the page to its new name. --PatrickMSullivan (talk) 18:40, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
MLB Reorganization 2.0
Just want to make sure you saw the wrinkle in the resumption of pre-reorg league names. There was so much back-and-forth between the Carolina and South Atlantic leagues that I wrote around this jumble. Before, the SAL had 14 teams and the Carolina had 10. In 2021, when traditional names were not used, High-A and Low-A each had 12 - with four having been imported from the disbanded New York-Pennsylvania League (s) and the downsized Midwest League (1) and only two teams from what had been the High-A Carolina League in what went by High-A East in 2021. When the original circuit names were restored in 2022, though, the South Atlantic brand went on High-A East and the Carolina name went on Low-A East. Thus, for example, Jersey Shore nominally stayed in its original league but went up one level with that league. This more properly belongs not in the stadium entries than the team ones, and I'm staying out of the latter as best I can. --PatrickMSullivan (talk) 22:58, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
- I got fooled by this, and changed all the High-A east names to "Carolina League" before realizing they had actually taken on the "South Atlantic League" name. Everything is in the correct place now - I think. Philippe (talk) 19:23, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
I'm reviewing as quickly I can, although I'm having a pretty busy weekend. I'll make sure the stadiums are good, and I won't change anything in the teams I'm not absolutely sure of without checking here first. --PatrickMSullivan (talk) 22:58, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
Ogren Park at Allegiance Field
See my comment on tht article's talk page. Also note that the team name had already been changed to "PaddleHeads" before the 2021 Minor League Reorganization. Which is why i've reverted your last round of changes. Philippe (talk) 00:50, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
Philippe and I discussed an idea a long time ago that I'd like to pitch now.
For reasons both practical and aesthetic, I'm a fan of Info boxes. I'd like to propose adding one for each stadium and making them consistent with each other. Therefore, I want to seek input on what should go in them.
Seems I don't have enough of a grasp on hypertext to do one by copying from an existing one, but my recommended starting point:
Flush right under the article header, with body copy wrapping around and linking within as appropriate.
- Name: The name of the ballpark as it appears on the stadium's main signage
- Location: City, ST, United States
- Groundbreaking: Date Mon. ##, YYYY
- First professional baseball game: Date Mon. ##, YYYY (to allow for situations like Chattanooga, whose ballpark's first game was a Baltimore-Cincinnati exhibition that remains its record baseball gate)
- Minor League tenants: Geo-name Nickname, ####-#### showing seasons w/MiLB club
- Other tenants: can be deleted if none, but e.g. to recognize college-owned stadium where MiLB team is secondary tenant
- Dimensions: Left Field: XXX feet - Center Field: XXX feet - Right Field: XXX feet
- Seats: number of seats, counting bleachers but not counting standing or group areas
- Stated capacity: per most credible source, usually team or facility owner (which is usually a municipality)
- Largest reported baseball/softball crowd: ##,### including college/parent exhibition/etc. - crowds that are documented and exceed the MiLB team's largest - several parks, especially in the South, have had larger crowds at a college game than any of the pro tenant's.
Other possibilities? Once we get a template, I will (enthusiastically add such a table to all our MiLB stadiums.
First professional baseball game evolved from "opening" or "debut." I'd almost rather have an "opened" than a "first" but what would we do with things like ribbon-cuttings, open houses and front-office move-ins?
I have or can fairly easily get most of this data. Record crowd hasn't been commonly used but is at least interesting AND also has a practical application. Stated capacities are sometimes so far exceeded as to be laughable - nearly double in some cases!
Names of these facilities can get confusing: Do we use separately named fields (i.e.: Perfect Game Field at Veterans Memorial Stadium)? What do we use when a team sticks an entirely fictional name on a ballpark it doesn't own? I believe the best and most consistent "rule" is the signage people see when they come in. I know of one case where even that's fictional - but the city let the team put it up...
- Sounds good. Use of boxes is inconsistent, so creating a standard one would be a definite improvement. Other tenants should include teams in other sports ( mainly football and soccer I would guess) in addition to college teams. Philippe (talk) 11:14, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
Pending feedback, I've added a couple of more items. Here's the new proposed lineup:
- NAME: The name of the ballpark as it appears on the stadium's main signage
- GPS-ABLE ADDRESS: the address that comes up in GoogleMaps upon entering the ballpark's name (this REPLACED and includes Location)
- OWNER(S): usually a municipality; if the team owns it under some corporate name, I'll use the team name
- GROUNDBREAKING: Date Month ##, YYYY
- FIRST PRO BASEBALL GAME: Date Month ##, YYYY (to allow for situations like Chattanooga, whose ballpark's first game was a Baltimore-Cincinnati exhibition that remains its record baseball gate)
- MINOR LEAGUE TENANT(S): Geo-name Nickname, ####-#### showing seasons w/MiLB club
- OTHER TENANT(S): can be deleted if none, but e.g. to recognize college-owned stadium where MiLB team is secondary tenant
- PREVIOUS NAMES: previous names for the stadium and years they were used
- DIMENSIONS: Left Field: XXX feet - Center Field: XXX feet - Right Field: XXX feet
- SEATS: number of seats, counting bleachers but not counting standing or group areas
- CAPACITY: stated capacity per most credible source, usually team or facility owner (which is usually a municipality)
- HOUSE BASEBALL/SOFTBALL RECORD CROWD: ##,###,MM/DD/YY - including college/parent exhibition/etc. - limited to crowds that are documented and exceed the MiLB team's largest - several parks, especially in the South, have had larger crowds at a college game than any of the pro tenant's.
Philippe, in a week or so to allow for feedback, could you set up and paste in here a table? I tried copying an existing info box - Chattanooga's ballpark's, if you want to try it, but I couldn't get the tables to line up correctly. (Or will that not work in here, either?) I still have some verifying to do but I can start posting what I'm confident of anytime. Thanx!PatrickMSullivan (talk) 19:48, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
You can do it as a bullet list and not as an infobox, as it's a lot easier to work with, unless someone proposes to help you put an infobox together. Unfortunately, I don't have any experience in creating an infobox. I don't think a table (which I have some experience in creating) would work well. If you go down the Bullet list road, using initial caps (as in your first example) looks a lot better than all-caps. It would be consistent with how we do basic info on players too. You may want to ask users Jeff, Alexautographs and Mischa for their feedback. I know that Mischa is not really into html coding, but the other two might know their way around better and could give you tips, in addition to valuable feedback. Philippe (talk) 22:31, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
- Thanx, I'll wait for that!
- My opinion (and I'll acknowledge up front a little bias) is that I'm not a fan of the info boxes. If someone wants to standardize them and maintain them, I wouldn't object. But they're just copied over from Wikipedia. We're based on the same coding, but we're not Wikipedia, so we don't have to look like them. The first pages created here were the player pages, which feature the bullet point format at the top. I made all of the minor league team pages follow that format 15 years ago, and I made all of the college pages follow that format. But again, just my opinion. Jeff (talk) 17:10, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
- I went to a player page to see an example. I like that just as well, and it is kinda distinct from Wiki. I'm No fan of Wiki, and while I'm using its data as A convenient (mostly) all-in-one-place source I'm not copying it over. I'm independently verifying whatever data I find there - which is of course what's taking so long. I'm going to hold off to see if there's a clear choice between these options. (Looks to me as if the bullets are easier to do.)PatrickMSullivan (talk) 18:05, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
- It looks fine, except I would suggest not using all-caps. Eg, use Name not NAME and so forth. Philippe (talk) 13:45, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
- Also, given the bullet list creates a blank space in the top right corner of the page, you could move the image there for balance (you can do this by moving the image code to the top line and replacing "left" with "right" in the coding). Philippe (talk) 13:47, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
- Couple of things I would consider a) instead of leaving a blank line between each entry, use a * at the beginning of each line and get rid of blank space. b) I would consider paring it down just a bit. i.e. dimensions and seating can fluctuate year to year. c) some things in the box will need to be maintained i.e. owner, record crowd. If they fall out of date, they may not be good items for the box. Jeff (talk) 01:05, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- Please take a look at AutoZone Park, adjusted with the above in mind. I track attendance closely - looking in every MiLB box score every day for just that purpose. Over the last 30 years, the average number of new record crowds across these 120 (surviving) clubs in 119 stadiums has been less than four per year. I consolidated the dimensions to one line, but this seems very standard in many reference sources and also changes rarely.