User talk:Ron liebman

What's source for all these different birthdays? They conflict everything else out there. - --Mischa 18:00, 24 January 2007 (EST)

I second Mischa's comment. You may be doing birth certificate checks or something equally valid, but if so you need to convince us with the evidence. - Randy 13:58 26 January 2007 (EST)

An additional comment - if it turns out that a player's career progressed with the world thinking he was younger/older than he really was, that in itself might be worth noting in a biography. His incorrect age may have been a factor in his success or lack thereof. - Randy 14:02 26 January 2007 (EST)

I am a careful and well-respected researcher since the 1960's. I know my way around the internet and have read thousands of baseball books. If you question any of these changes, you can call me at(718) 575-3019 or write me at Ron Liebman, 67-45A 152nd Street, Flushing, News York 11367. If my carefully researched changes are not welcome, I will discontinue them.

Your additions are certainly appreciated. If you could just cite your sources when making edits, it would be nice (the same holds true for many other users - it's nice to know where people got their material from). Keep up the work. - --Mischa 19:26, 27 January 2007 (EST)

I assume these will all be in the next SABR Biographical Committee report, which should be the best ever in terms of the number of Hall of Famers with corrected birthdates? - --Mischa 15:44, 28 J

What happened to my comments on your contributions? Why have they been erased? Mr. Liebman, I certainly do appreciate your efforts in regards to fixing incorrect birthdates... however, I do believe there needs to be some sort of notations made on the pages, at least until the SABR officially recognizes the changes. Users coming to the site here will assume we are sloppy and incorrect if the info we have here does not match 99% of the other sources out there, so while I'm all for fixing the incorrect dates, I think there needs to be a notation on such pages... something like "XXX is often listed as being born on Month Day, Year, but according to whatever source, his correct date of birth has been determined to be Month Day, Year." And once again, I don't appreciate my comments being wiped out. This site is a colloborative effort, and if you are unwilling to work in the spirit of colloboration, maybe you'd be better to take your work elsewhere. -Chisoxfan 14:34, 4 February 2007 (EST)

I also have some concern, because questions have fairly been raised. For example, it was pointed out that Vada Pinson's previously-listed birthdate accorded well with the time he was signed by the pros. With a 1938 birthdate, he was signed out of high school, whereas with the 1936 birthdate he would have been 20 years old, with a couple missing years to account for. I think issues like that are important enough that any change warrants a mention in the player's biography noting the basis for the change and the source thereof. - Randy 14:39 4 February 2007 (EST)

Sources for Changes

Ron, I appreciate your efforts here, but it would be very useful and helpful to us if you would put citations on the changes that you are making. For our purposes the SABR bio committee of which I know you are a member is the best source for us. Are these changes consistent with the material that they have? Thank you for the help.

--Admin 15:23, 4 February 2007 (EST)

regarding Vada Pinson, I relied on several reliable sources/ TheBallplayers staff in 1990 determined that he was born in 1936;Bill James in his New Hisdtorical Basebalkl Abstract (2001)said that Pinson was 23, not 21 in 1959; several whispers during Pinson's carreer (particularly during beginning and end of career said that he was older than his "baseball age" There is no Tennessee birth list on internet. He gave social security the 1938 date but never reached social security age where he had to verify it. Many blacks were delivered vby midwife without formal birth certificate. Anyway, social security records are usually valid for whites from 1910-on and blacks from 1940-on (Pinson does not fall into these categories). A majority of pre-1960 major league blacks lied about their age. the baseball-library.com website also uses 1936 date (I did not give input to any of these sources). I erased a comment because I felt it was sarcastic. I am a careful researcher. As I said, I will run these chages by Bill Carle (in near future - maybe not befoire next newsletter. Respect my reputation. I am not a fool.

Ron, it is never about reputation. It's all about verifiability. Reputation comes about because good work has been verified. - Randy 18:37 9 February 2007 (EST)

I think some news articles should be published about what you say above. I had no idea about these things you related to us. I apologize. Please forgive me. I just think this stuff needs to really get out into the mainstream, so everyone will know, including the media and the general baseball public. I had never heard this info. -- David -- 18:33 CST, 9 Feb. 2007 I feel than my name should be added to "category: researchers." I certainly fit in with the names mentioned - many of whom are long deceased. (Ron Liebman) Thanks foir including me, but the list cannot be complete until you add Bob McConnell, perhaps SABR's most distinguished living reseacher. Tnaks in advance. Thanks a lot for adding myslef and Bob McConnell (Mr.Baseball Research) to the list of researchers. Enjoy some of our work in the new SABR Baseball List and Record Book, which is now on the market. Bender's sister presented birth certificate (obtained 1942) to clear up discredpancies in his birth year and it said 5/3/1883. Contemporary obits in 1954 mostly said he was 71. Bender was voted SABR Centennial Celebrity of 1983 (Best baseball player of figure born in 1883). Misha and Sean - Please do not revert this again. ----- Ron Liebman (4/25/2007)

Ron, the reason your "contributions" have been rejected is because an internet posting in the 21st Century is not valid proof of Sam Rice's birthday. You've been shown to be wrong numerous times in the past - ex. Pie Traynor being the last Pirate infielder with 200 hits - so we can hardly consider you a foolproof researcher. It is the policy here to use only substantiated biographical sources like the SABR Biographical Committee. Those of your changes which they have substantiated, we accept. Otherwise, we reject them. This is the same reason wikipedia kept rejecting your changes. - --Mischa 17:26, 30 May 2007 (EDT)

The main issue is the credibility of the site. If this site has unverifiable information on it, than the suspicion will be that all the information may be suspect. I think it would be a better idea to post possible changes to demographic information in the biographical section. When the birth date changes become universally accepted, we can then go and change it in the demographic section. Further, if the bullpen page differs form the main BR page, what credibility does that give the bullpen. Putting forth new information is great, and many times absolutely necessary, but beating yuor chest and proclaiming yourself the final word does no-one any good, least of all the public who may use the Bullpen as a reference source. --Jeff 22:06, 30 May 2007 (EDT)