Justine Siegal Throws BP For Tribe
Posted by Steve Lombardi on February 23, 2011
Click here to see Jordan Bastian's story on this at MLB.com.
Somewhere, Jackie Mitchell must be smiling.
Personally, I've always felt, if MLB would ever allow a woman to play in the big leagues, the first one to break in would be a pitcher - and probably a left-handed one with a trick pitch. But, that's just my opinion. What about you? Think we'll ever see a woman in the major leagues?
February 23rd, 2011 at 11:54 am
If someone like Tim Wakefield can have a long, productive career, I can't see why a woman can't do the same to be honest.
February 23rd, 2011 at 12:04 pm
Who knows, could be this girl: http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/e60/news/story?id=5386830
February 23rd, 2011 at 12:34 pm
So few opportunities for women to play baseball growing up reduces the possibility of connecting that talent with the sport. She might be out there, but she plays soccer, or softball, or some other sport that has extensive female participation.
I'd love to see a female knuckleballer. I can't see any reason why one couldn't succeed. I like to believe that if a woman is able to compete, she'd get on a team, and that being a female wouldn't have anything to do with it but I'm not so sure.
February 23rd, 2011 at 12:41 pm
@2 - I was thinking the same thing.
And yes, it's fairly likely that, if a woman were to break in, she would probably be a pitcher, she would probably throw a knuckleball (or other "trick pitch"), and she would probably play in the AL. These would all reduce the amount of stress on her body, which has a lot less muscle mass than a man's would. It seems possible, but since girls have "their own sports," as #3 mentions above, girls are much more discouraged from competing in "boy sports." Overall, since it makes participation in sports for all girls higher, it seems to me a good thing. But, it may actually be a hinderance to the very, very top female athletes.
February 23rd, 2011 at 12:59 pm
Of course, there's the locker room issue. It's OK for male baseball players to be nude in front of female media members - it happens now. But, will it be OK for a woman baseball player to be nude in front of male reporters? I doubt it - it's not allowed now in sports like tennis and the NCAA. So, the woman baseball player would have to locker apart from the rest of the team. Not sure if that matters or not. The important thing, to the team and her mates, should be if she can perform well on the field and not if she has to shower and dress alone and away from the team.
February 23rd, 2011 at 1:12 pm
My bet is that it will be a non-American -- probably a Japanese woman -- that will break the "Gender Line" in Organized Baseball. But then, I also predicted a Nixon victory in the election of 1960; so take this as the guess it is.
February 23rd, 2011 at 1:24 pm
Eri Yoshida?
http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Eri_Yoshida
February 23rd, 2011 at 1:43 pm
"...if MLB would ever allow a woman to play in the big leagues..."
I didn't realize there was a rule against it.
I like to think that the first instance wouldn't be as much of a "stunt" as it would have been say in the 1970's, but there would be a lot of money to be made due to increased interest - so that may be the initial driving factor. Unless a woman comes along that can REALLY play at that level.
I would think all little league teams allow girls at this point, so if there were someone with enough talent that stuck with baseball thru college (I am not sure of the rules for allowing Girls on the teams in High Scholl and College), There is no reason they could not get drafted and play Minor League ball (again if rules permit). THAT is where the "stunt" factor may come into play and she might get rushed into a big league game. But that wouldn't be the end of the world as a September call-up, since it would probably go a long way toward getting girls/women into baseball. I would think the biggest stumbling block is the fact that all of the most talented girls (closest to major league potential) go into softball long before getting on the professional baseball track.
February 23rd, 2011 at 2:09 pm
Cleveland Indians? I thought it said she threw BP against a major league team?
February 23rd, 2011 at 2:27 pm
Thanks, Neil; I was thinking of Yoshida, but I just couldn't recall her name.
Has anyone seen my mind lately? I know I had it before the grandkids came to visit.
February 23rd, 2011 at 6:25 pm
All this talk about a woman breaking through only as a pitcher seems to indicated a bias that a woman wouldn't be able to hit.
I'm guessing muscle mass would make it unlikely for a woman to be able to hit for much power, but there's lots of guys in the majors who also don't hit for power.
Why not second base? Shorter throws and not a position where much power hitting is usually expected. Also (just based on observation and a gut assessment) a position where shorter players are more common than at other positions.
February 23rd, 2011 at 6:46 pm
Sure, 2b might be the next most possible place for a female player, but that female player would still have to beat out all the most capable male players. Omar Vizquel will be 44 with a contract, and no power in his bat and no speed left in his legs, playing middle infield and being a defensive replacement. So he's the comparison you're shooting for I guess. Can a woman play ball as well as 43 year old Vizquel did in 2010?
While I believe there may be some women who potentially could, I doubt those women would have pursued baseball. They probably run track, play volleyball, tennis, or maybe play in the WNBA.
Hitting off major league pitching with a wooden bat (that will weigh at least 30 ounces to make any decent hits) requires quite a reasonable amount of strength. Even "powerless hitters" like Vizquel or Juan Pierre are still quite strong men, stronger and faster than almost all female athletes except those competing in a pure athletic like track or weightlifting.
I once met Vince Coleman. The guy never could hit for power at all. But even he had arms like steel with muscles that rippled when he signed his autograph and was a good sized man.
Not to mention, having major league infielder's range isn't exactly that easy either, since I doubt she'll be hitting her way into a lineup. Even Ichiro, whose model of hitting might be the easiest to replicate, is a very strong man with range and arm in the outfield and speed on the bases.
The odds are stacked heavily against a women being able to play on an MLB team as anything more than a circus act. Finesse pitcher I think is the only legitimate possibility.
February 23rd, 2011 at 7:06 pm
Jimbo. you're right !
February 23rd, 2011 at 7:19 pm
...I was thinking about this when I was a kid, wondering if a steroid-pumped East German "woman" Olympic athlete might defect to the USA and try baseball. Maybe one of their shot-putters, that's kind of like throwing a knuckleball. Alas, we'll never know because there's no more East Germany, and of course, MLB would NEVER allow someone who uses steroids.
February 23rd, 2011 at 7:27 pm
......the 1966 Cubs played like girls, does that count?
February 23rd, 2011 at 8:38 pm
Just a matter of time, guys. Women can throw, run, hit and catch. Sure, not the absolute power, but plenty enough for top females to be above average males. And we are talking the upper eschelon of atheletes here. Check out the Olympic level softballers if you don't this (with that silly ball!).
The biggest problem, IMO, is intertia. Baseball seems to have gone from progressive (think Mr Riccy & #42) back to its conservative "it must not change at any costs" roots. Speed up the game by limiting throws to 1st? Nope. Bats? Nope. Women? Never have, never will. We sort of tried it in the 40s and 50s and it didn't work, so forget it. Just a mindset that someone must be willing to break.
(I think it is rant day... sigh)
February 23rd, 2011 at 10:41 pm
@14
Just having the athletic ability and steroids wouldn't cut it. It still takes a lifetime of work. No woman would ever be as athletic and strong as Michael Jordan was, trying to play baseball at the prime of his nba career. But even Jordan, at the end of a full year of baseball training, was no better than a AA player. I do think Jordan could've made it to MLB if he worked hard at it another year or 2 though.
February 23rd, 2011 at 10:42 pm
And who said anything about "average males." MLB'ers are far, far from that.
February 23rd, 2011 at 10:47 pm
Also, I know this first hand because I was a very skilled and dedicated baseball player, just unfortunately with the wrong build. Only 5'8" and of slim build. I strength trained like a, and carried about 30 lbs of muscle over my natural body weight, but being 5'8" and 165lbs is a huge obstacle to becoming a baseball player. It's hard enough to make MLB as it is, having to do so with a woman's body? It would be a hell of a story, but most likely, just a stunt, unless she was a knuckeballer or oefus pitcher of some sort, or maybe a sac bunt specialist.
February 24th, 2011 at 12:50 am
@18
Should have read "top females above average MLB players".
February 24th, 2011 at 8:04 am
@Mark, I'm not so sure about your statement that "top female athletes" can "throw, run, hit and catch" above your average MLB players, that seems far-fetched.
I don't doubt that females could play in the MLB, but you'd have to be talking about someone who was in the top .01% of female athletes who also dedicated her life to baseball before there was any chance.
Olympic softballers are great at softball but I don't think any one of them would be a positive replacement for anyone currently in the MLB. If they would, why wouldn't they be there already?
February 24th, 2011 at 1:59 pm
Be careful what you wish for, if indeed folks are wishing for it.
Such evolution in sports could end up with fewer, not more, opportunities for women. If "male" sports become open to women, men will understandably demand to play in, for instance, LPGA events, on college and pro women's soccer teams, vollyball teams, basketball teams, especially where no male version of the sport is available to men, as is the case at some colleges.
February 24th, 2011 at 2:31 pm
Franco, you're comparing apples to oranges, men aren't generally allowed to compete in women's leagues because of fairness. Similar to the reason I can't play Little League, or in an over 45 basketball league (I can't claim age discrimination). Pro sports leagues don't actively forbid women from joining.
In other words, women aren't trying to overcome a hurdle of arbitrary discrimination that men will demand in kind.
February 24th, 2011 at 5:30 pm
Re: my original Post #14 and responses 17 and 20. . . . .
As I stated, I was a KID when I wondered about Olympic women athletes playing major league baseball, and back then softball wasn't even an Olympic event.
My steroids reference was sarcastic, not serious.
As for devoting oneself to a lifetime of training and experience in order to make it to the major leagues, there's a bunch of guys who played college football and basketball before deciding to "devote" themselves to pro baseball. Some MLB players never even played high school baseball at all.
It doesn't take a lifetime to learn how to throw a knuckleball, and for some guys that's the only pitch they had. If a guy could learn it, so could a girl.
If Michael Jordan had relied less on his athletic ability, and more on learning to throw a knuckleball, he might have made it with the White Sox.
It worked for Hoyt Wilhelm.
It worked for Wilbur Wood.
What's keeping women from playing pro baseball is simply the "men only" mentality.
February 24th, 2011 at 10:01 pm
I've always wondered if baseball has something against the knuckleball. It seems strange thats there's never more than a couple of them in the league, and never has been.
The knuckleball that Tim Wakefield throws can't be that hard to learn, I just don't believe that he's the only guy in the world that can throw it, and hence he gets to be baseball's only knuckler. He's 44 ffs and we're supposed to believe he's the only guy that can throw an mlb calibre knuckleball? Knuckleball pitchers can potentially pitch many innings. They also can throw opposing teams off their timing. It would be a perfect fit for every team to have a "longman" in their bullpen that is a knuckler, someone that can come in early if the starter struggles, and eat uip innings, or just generally be a middle game reliever to mess up the opponent batters before they transition from starter to late inning guy (knucklers would make the perfect 6th-7th inning guys).
I think there some "prejudice" against the knuckleball and the oefus pitch (an effective pitch that could be used, especially by a reliever coming in to mess with a hot hitter. Baseball doesn't really want these pitches. I bet if a bunch of pitchers started breaking into the league and having success with these pitches, the rules would be rewritten to not allow pitches below a certain speed or something. It would be similar to how the Eddie Gaedal issue was handled.
February 25th, 2011 at 8:42 am
I think part of the knuckleball's difficulty to hit is a timing issue. When you're looking at pitchers who at high 80s to low 90s with their fastballs with a high 70s low 80s offspeed for the most part, seeing a knuckleball that comes in from 50-70 mph and follows no set path while having to protect against a fastball is a difficult change.
No doubt the unpredictability of the knuckleball is one factor, but I would imagine facing more knuckleball pitchers would reduce the effectiveness.
I wonder how many times teams faced knuckleball pitchers in back-to-back games and I wonder if they did significantly better in the second game.
February 25th, 2011 at 9:04 am
@Phil
Plus, according to Wikipedia, Wakefield decided to develop a curveball in 1988 when he was told he'd never make it as a position player. So he had 7 years of training and practice on professional minor-league baseball teams to develop his pitching style before he got to the majors. He also worked with both Niekro brothers.
So essentially Wakefield is a lifetime baseball player who had access to the best possible training and trainers and it took him 7 years to break into the MLB.
And you're saying "I don't see why anyone else can't do that."? The notion that a top female (or male) athlete could decide to train and easily develop a knuckleball that would be successful enough to make an MLB team seems absurd to me. I'm not saying it's impossible but, yes, it would take years of dedication.