Phils’ reliever throws 20 wide ones
Posted by John Autin on September 5, 2011
In a long-relief stint in Sunday's 14-inning game, David Herndon of the Phillies issued 5 intentional walks (and 7 walks in all) in 3.2 innings. That tied the known relief record for IBBs in a game,* and fell 1 shy of the game record in any role:
| Rk | Player | Date | Tm | Opp | Rslt | App,Dec | IP | H | R | ER | BB | SO | HR | Pit | Str | GSc | IR | IS | BF | AB | 2B | 3B | IBB | HBP | SH | SF | GDP | SB | CS | PO | BK | WP | WPA | RE24 | ||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Mike McCormick | 1967-07-19 | SFG | PIT | L 1-2 | GS-11 ,L | 10.0 | 8 | 2 | 1 | 8 | 4 | 0 | 66 | 46 | 37 | 2 | 1 | 6 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0.90 | 0.326 | 1.458 | 1.891 | ||||
| 2 | David Herndon | 2011-09-04 | PHI | FLA | L 4-5 | 11-14f,L | 3.2 | 4 | 1 | 1 | 7 | 0 | 0 | 69 | 27 | 0 | 0 | 23 | 12 | 0 | 0 | 5 | 1 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2.45 | 0.021 | 0.117 | 3.990 | |
| 3 | Lynn McGlothen | 1975-07-19 | STL | SFG | L 2-5 | GS-6 ,L | 6.0 | 9 | 4 | 4 | 7 | 3 | 1 | 34 | 33 | 26 | 1 | 0 | 5 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 6.00 | -0.221 | -1.134 | .949 | ||||
| 4 | John Hiller | 1974-08-09 | DET | TEX | L 3-4 | 9-14f,L | 5.2 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 11 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 29 | 14 | 0 | 0 | 5 | 0 | 4 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1.59 | 0.254 | 2.253 | 3.330 | |||
| 5 | Rudy May | 1973-09-17 | CAL | OAK | L 2-3 | CG 13 ,L | 12.2 | 10 | 3 | 2 | 11 | 8 | 0 | 71 | 56 | 39 | 1 | 0 | 5 | 0 | 4 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1.42 | 0.192 | 3.168 | 2.182 | ||||
| 6 | Sam McDowell | 1970-09-02 | CLE | WSA | L 1-4 | GS-8 ,L | 7.1 | 10 | 4 | 4 | 6 | 6 | 0 | 42 | 37 | 31 | 2 | 0 | 5 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 4.91 | 0.039 | 0.680 | 1.213 | ||||
| 7 | Tug McGraw | 1970-04-24 | NYM | LAD | L 0-1 | 10-14 | 5.0 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 6 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 24 | 15 | 1 | 0 | 5 | 0 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0.00 | 0.664 | 2.388 | 3.384 | |||
| 8 | Robin Roberts | 1957-09-10 | PHI | STL | L 3-4 | 11-14f,L | 3.0 | 7 | 1 | 1 | 5 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 21 | 16 | 1 | 0 | 5 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 3.00 | 0.044 | -0.357 | 3.612 | |||
| 9 | Warren Spahn | 1954-06-09 | MLN | NYG | L 0-4 | CG 9 ,L | 9.0 | 11 | 4 | 4 | 9 | 5 | 0 | 45 | 45 | 33 | 3 | 0 | 5 | 0 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 4.00 | 0.094 | 0.308 | 1.114 | ||||
| 10 | Satchel Paige | 1952-07-01 | SLB | CLE | L 3-4 | 9-19f,L | 10.2 | 8 | 2 | 2 | 8 | 5 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 48 | 38 | 3 | 0 | 5 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1.69 | 0.420 | 3.398 | 2.803 |
In 84 career games before Sunday, Herndon had never walked more than 2 (and that just twice). The 5 IBBs Sunday matched his previous career total.
Florida's game-winning "rally" in the 14th went as follows: Walk, sacrifice, IBB, lineout (runners hold), IBB (???) to Logan Morrison, walk to Mike Cameron on a 3-1 pitch.
So, what about that IBB to Morrison, advancing the winning run to 3rd base? Herndon is a RHP with a large platoon differential. His career BA and OBP splits:
- vs. RHB -- .278 BA, .310 OBP
- vs. LHB -- .343 BA, .444 OBP
The samples aren't large -- 282 PAs vs. RHB, 161 vs. LHB. But with his BA against lefties significantly higher than his OBP against righties, and Herndon not prone to wild pitches (2 in 102 IP), the decision to walk Morrison is at least defensible ... or so it seems to me. What do you think?
_________________
* Intentional walks became an official stat in 1955. Game IBB totals are available via Retrosheet's play-by-play accounts back to 1950, though perhaps not for every single game. (I don't know.)
September 5th, 2011 at 11:03 am
So every team walking 5 or more intentionally lost? That seems like it should be a good cue to managers NOT to do this.
September 5th, 2011 at 11:18 am
Technically, he didn't throw 20 "wide ones". A couple of the intentional walks started off as normal at-bats which got to 2 or 3 balls and no strikes (like LoMo's IBB), which the Phillies then ceded as intentional walks, IIRC.
Of course, this could all be for not, since the Phillies protested the game starting about 5 innings prior to any of the walks being issued at all.
September 5th, 2011 at 11:32 am
IBB the winning run to 3rd?
Idiocy. That's my in-depth saber-opinion. One word: idiocy
Or, for our international readers:
idiotie
حماقة
idiozia
白痴
idiotyzm
идиотизм
ידיאַסי
September 5th, 2011 at 11:53 am
How about McCormick's 7/19/67 loss at Forbes Field? Mays and Clemente BOTH sit this one out - give the fans their money back!
September 5th, 2011 at 12:05 pm
Maybe those innings didn't really happen. The Phils are protesting a replay call in the 6th inning because they say double vs. fan interference is not reviewable.
September 5th, 2011 at 12:32 pm
Mike McCormick won the NL Cy Young in 1967. The hitters he intentionally walked in that game were Donn Clendenon, Gene Alley, Jose Pagan, Maury Wills, Andre Rodgers, and Bill Mazeroski.
Clendenon was a legitimately good hitter; Gene Alley was a good hitter for a couple of seasons (1966-67) and bad for the rest of his career; Mazeroski was hitting .287 at the time, and it was an era in which players were judged more heavily by their batting average than they are today; Maury Wills had a reputation as a decent hitter and actually had an OPS+ over 100 for the season. The other two guys were flat-out bad.
I'm not someone who hates the intentional walk, but if you've got a Cy Young-caliber pitcher on the mound, intentionally walking six guys - two of whom are bad, and three of whom are borderline good at best - seems a bit excessive. Why not just trust your pitcher (or, if it was McCormick's call, why not just trust your stuff?)?
September 5th, 2011 at 1:25 pm
Herndon never should have pitched that long. He got in trouble in the eleventh, the twelfth, the thirteenth and the fourteenth innings - every inning he pitched. Clearly the Phillies were conceding that game, or they are confident that their protest will be upheld and didn't want to waste anyone else.
September 5th, 2011 at 3:10 pm
Worked for McGlothen. Nobody scored in the innings after he gave up the IBB. He faced 12 batters with a runner on third (including 3 IBB) and only 1 runner from was brought in. The number 8 hitter, Rader was intentionally walked 3 times.
September 5th, 2011 at 3:41 pm
@1 - Teams don't always lose when they intentionally walk 5 or more. The list above is for an individual pitcher issuing 5 or more IBBs.
There have been 5 instances when teams have issued 7 IBBs in a game - those teams are a combined 0-5, with the shortest game being 11 innings.
There have been 14 instances when teams have issued 6 IBBs in a game - those teams are a combined 5-9.
There have been 63 instances when teams have issued 5 IBBs in a game - those teams are a combined 10-53.
Ok, so they don't always lose, but the combined record of teams which issue 5 or more IBBs is 15-67, which is pretty awful. Most of the wins came in extra inning games.
Only once (in the searchable database) has a team issued 5 or more IBBs in a game of 9 innings or less and won:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/NY1/NY1195406200.shtml
September 5th, 2011 at 3:57 pm
@ 7 "Clearly the Phillies were conceding that game, or they are confident that their protest will be upheld and didn't want to waste anyone else."
Didn't want to waste? Aside from Madson who they were 'saving' for a closing spot (which is a tad silly but I guess if they used him and then didnt take the lead they'd really be in trouble), they didn't have anyone left.
September 5th, 2011 at 4:28 pm
Satchel Paige had 8 games (6 starts) with 9 or more innings pitched
G 8
GS 6
CG 6
SHO 4
W-L 6-1
IP 79.2
R 6
ER 6
ERA 0.68
In all 8 games he had at least 7 consecutive scoreless innings
September 5th, 2011 at 4:49 pm
I'm surprised how few runs were given up by the pitchers on that list. Three gave up 4 and none others gave up more than 2. I'm not saying that just because an intentional walk should be harmful, but because usually a pitcher is only issuing an intentional walk if he's already in trouble. These pitchers must have been in a lot of trouble, but they somehow escaped with little damage.
September 5th, 2011 at 5:27 pm
And this might sound kooky, but check it out.
We've seen this before, where a pitcher loses the ability to find the strike zone after issuing an intentional walk.
So, why not train one of the infielders, like the 3rd baseman, to pitch intentional walks, and have your pitcher switch positions with him for the event?
Of course, if the problem is psychological, then making your pitcher stand at 3rd base for 45 seconds might screw him up, too. Or, it gives him a breather and moment to gain perspective on his task.
Either way, deliberately putting the winning run on 3rd base is идиотизм.
September 5th, 2011 at 5:41 pm
You should read the game log for McDowell. In inning 6, Howard hit the ball to McDowell who tried to throw to first but no one was there. On the next play the throw to first got there too late for a double play.
September 5th, 2011 at 6:08 pm
@13 Interesting proposal. Anyone can walk a batter. But you also have to train him to pitch without balking and to put the ball right where the catcher wants it. The pitcher cannot throw the ball on an IBB unless the catcher is in the box, if not, the pitcher is charged with a balk. Must be embarrassing to balk or throw a wild pitch when you're trying for an on intentional base on balls.
September 5th, 2011 at 8:06 pm
Also, on occasion the pitcher throws an IBB pitch that get frightenly near the strike zone. I've also heard Honus Wagner flicked at one such pitch for a hit (but I could be wrong on the player)
September 5th, 2011 at 8:27 pm
As noted above; all 10 times the pitcher's team lost the game. 9 out of 10 times the pitcher who gave up all the IBB was the losing pitcher. But, 9 out of 10 times that pitcher had a positive WPA.
September 5th, 2011 at 9:29 pm
@16 I've heard that too, that some batters have gotten a hit off of what was supposed to be an IBB. I've heard Pete Rose did this, I think off of Rollie Fingers in the 1972 World Series. Does anyone know if that's right?
September 5th, 2011 at 9:46 pm
They are common in extra innings whe you get a runner on with first base open. I looked at Robin Roberts game. 5 out of the 6 times their was a runner on with an open base, he walked the batter to create a force run situation. 3 times in 4 innings, bases were loaded. Finally the odds caught up with him and he lost the game in the the 14th.
That's why the list is full of relief pitchers who pitched 3 or more innings in extra innings (3 jams can get you to 5 IBB). I looked at the games, except for McGlothen and McDowell because they did not pitch in the ninth, and wondered how many times in the 9th inning or later did a pitcher issue an IBB with a runner on 3rd with 1st and or 2nd unoccupied or a runner on 2nd with 1st base open. I looked at both teams 36/68 times the batter was walked intentionally.
McDowell's is high because their plan was to walk Frank Howard, until they brought Dean Chance in to pitch to him and moved McDowell over to first for the rest of the inning.
September 5th, 2011 at 10:30 pm
So every team walking 5 or more intentionally lost? That seems like it should be a good cue to managers NOT to do this.
I'm too lazy to check the game logs, but I think most IBBs occur when a team is behind. Those above probably did too.
We've seen this before, where a pitcher loses the ability to find the strike zone after issuing an intentional walk.
I've never noticed this. Evidence?
The pitcher cannot throw the ball on an IBB unless the catcher is in the box, if not, the pitcher is charged with a balk.
This rule is enforced approximately never.
I've also heard Honus Wagner flicked at one such pitch for a hit (but I could be wrong on the player)
I think it was Nap Lajoie.
September 5th, 2011 at 10:47 pm
I think Lajoie actually threw his bat at the pitch.
September 5th, 2011 at 11:44 pm
@3 Is one of those languages Polish?
September 5th, 2011 at 11:57 pm
@22,
Tak to jest. (Yes it is).
September 6th, 2011 at 12:56 am
@20, JT replied to:
We've seen this before, where a pitcher loses the ability to find the strike zone after issuing an intentional walk.
... with:
I've never noticed this. Evidence?
JT, I've noticed many game-ending walks that were preceded by an IBB to load the bases. No, I have nothing but anecdotal evidence; I wish there was an efficient way to check it with the Play Index. I could manually check all game-ending walks via the Event Finder, but then how would I find the other games where an IBB loaded the bases but wasn't followed by another walk?
September 6th, 2011 at 1:18 am
@23 Bardzo dobrze! My grandfather was in the polish Air Force.
September 6th, 2011 at 4:15 am
As noted above; all 10 times the pitcher's team lost the game. 9 out of 10 times the pitcher who gave up all the IBB was the losing pitcher
September 6th, 2011 at 4:16 am
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September 6th, 2011 at 10:52 am
Sandy Koufax once intentionally walked Bob Uecker.
Here is Miguel Cabrara hitting a go-ahead RBI in the 10th inning on an IBB attempt that was a little too close to the plate
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1648147/miguel_cabreras_intentional_hit/
September 6th, 2011 at 11:19 am
@13, @15 - Having a position player throwing trhe four pitches for an IBB:
Also, the motion and approach of throwing from the pitchers mound to home plate is different than (for example) throwing across the diamond from third to first. I'm not sure a position player could instantly adjust to pitching - would they get "warmup" pitches to throw an IBB (dumb question)?
September 6th, 2011 at 12:01 pm
JT, I've noticed many game-ending walks that were preceded by an IBB to load the bases.
Hmm, I do remember a big one in Mets history.....but many?
Anyway, this is one of those things that broadcasters sometimes say, that a pitcher can lose the strike zone after throwing an IBB. Not to say that it's never happened, but I've never noticed it myself. I question whether it's actually something worth worrying about.
September 6th, 2011 at 12:18 pm
Yes, a new pitcher always gets warmup tosses.
And I'm suggesting it be a player who has specifically trained for the task.
I said 3Bman before, but I think more sensibly it would be the 1Bman or an outfielder. If there is a need for an IBB, there's almost certainly a man on 2nd, so putting the pitcher at 3rd might be asking for trouble.
September 6th, 2011 at 4:00 pm
@30, JT -- I didn't make myself clear before. I wasn't focussing on the bases-loaded walk coming from the same pitcher who issued the IBB that loaded 'em up. I'm just saying, I notice a fair number of bases-loaded walks that followed an IBB, whether or not the same pitcher did both.
September 6th, 2011 at 4:11 pm
Just throwing some data out there, thinking out loud about the shape of a possible mini-study....
This year, 2 out of 3 game-ending walks followed an IBB:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CLE/CLE201105100.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/FLO/FLO201109040.shtml
And 2 of 5 go-ahead walks in the 9th inning or later (not game-ending) followed an IBB:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/HOU/HOU201107030.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/TBA/TBA201107180.shtml
All 3 game-ending HBP were preceded by an IBB, 2 of them immediately so:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/NYN/NYN201106220.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CLE/CLE201108090.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/WAS/WAS201108210.shtml
September 6th, 2011 at 6:45 pm
Awesome research, J.A.
September 6th, 2011 at 10:56 pm
JA/33, it seems incredible so many of those plays followed IBBs. Certainly something to think about. Still, I wish I could see data showing the percentage of walks given up by the same pitcher folllowing all IBBs (adjusted by the pitchers' and batters' usual walk rates, preferably). I just can't think of any easy way to collect that data, and I certainly don't have the computer skills to parse all the logs.
September 8th, 2011 at 12:44 pm
@JA #33,
Interesting data, although two of those instances the walk/hbp was not "immediately" after issuing the IBB, there was a batter in between.
September 8th, 2011 at 6:59 pm
In 2008, Josh Hamilton was given an intentional walk with the bases load with his team behind by several runs.
September 9th, 2011 at 3:41 pm
@37, Charles is referring to this game:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/TEX/TEX200808170.shtml
Josh Hamilton came up with 2 out in the 9th, bases loaded, trailing 7-3, thus he represented the tying run. Tampa manager Joe Maddon ordered the IBB, then brought in Dan Wheeler to face Marlon Byrd.
Wheeler struck out Byrd, but it was still nuts. By his choice, Maddon was essentially saying that the odds of Hamilton hitting a home run were better than those of Byrd hitting a HR, 3B, or long 2B. There's just no way the math bears that out. And there was no significantly history between Hamilton and either Grant Balfour (who gave the IBB) or Wheeler.
September 9th, 2011 at 3:43 pm
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