Talk:Bingo DeMoss
I made a number of changes to this page, partially for readability and partially to remove some POV.
Mischa, we've chatted via email a number of times, and I understand that you have a dislike for Bingo DeMoss, probably because he is almost the archetype of your least favorite player: the weak-bat, strong-glove type whom you feel is hyped beyond his station. This may be true of DeMoss, though as one who has studied some of the pre-league play, I think he gets a harder rap for his hitting than he should.
Does he deserve to be in the Hall? Well, people more expert than I have already spoken on that subject, and unless I can find some compelling analysis to dispute that, I will abide by their wisdom.
That said, I believe that he was the All-Star 2B of his day. Of course he played "small-ball". That was the only game they played then, especially when you played for Rube Foster in the 'teens and early twenties. And, you know what? They were damned good at it.
At this point, I have no problem accepting that DeMoss was not HoF level. In fact, I'm having trouble finding any Negro Leagues second baseman who was HoF level. Maybe George Scales, though he played third and first in addition to second. Maybe Newt Allen, though I haven't seen his whole career. Maybe Bill Monroe, but the statistical evidence is spotty, and he did not exclusively play second. DeMoss himself played third and short in his early years, though his time at second was enough to justify calling him a career second baseman.
It is kind of odd that the Negro Leagues might have no top-flight second basemen in their history, but have such an embarrassment of riches at catcher (Gibson, Mackey, and Santop are in the Hall, while Larry Brown, Frank Duncan and Bruce Petway would have no problem competing for All-Star berths with any white counterparts).
Most of my changes have been to minimize the POV statements, letting statistics speak for themselves instead of calling them "weak", or saying he "only" hit xxx.
I think part of the reason for the lack of Negro League 2B (and even Frank Grant wasn't really a Negro Leaguer much) was that the top infielders played short - and there were lots of star Negro League SS like Lloyd, Wells, Lundy, etc. who would have starred in the majors as well. Beckwith too, if you count him at shortstop, but he probably would have played elsewhere in MLB.
I realize I probably put too much personal opinion into the original article; thanks for making it more fact-centered and less opinioninated. - --Mischa 17:19, 7 March 2007 (EST)
Agreed as to shortstops. The Negro Leagues were much richer in talent at catcher and short than their white counterparts, especially when you consider pool sizes, but they were surprisingly weak at other infield positions, and especially at second, and you may well be right that it was because the best fielders were moved to SS. Moore and Lundy started at 3rd and 2nd, respectively.
DeMoss was a much better 2B than 3B or SS (his arm really wasn't as good as necessary to play the others, but his DP pivot was described by contemporaries and the best of its time), and I think you devalue defense too much for that particular era: when hitting is poor, power is almost nonexistent, and errors are plentiful, a superior defensive player can be worth as much as a great hitter. There WERE great hitters at that time (Torriente, Hill, and Lloyd were pre-league contemporaries), and it would take an impossible amount of defense to match them, but no one (to my knowledge) ever claimed DeMoss was as good as those three.
Couillaud 18:42, 7 March 2007 (EST)
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