35 Responses to “Mark Reynolds & more strikeouts than batting average points”

1. Hartvig Says:
   September 24th, 2010 at 8:05 am

   I saw the title & immediately thought of Rob Deer. He came close in 1991.

2. Tmckelv Says:
   September 24th, 2010 at 8:10 am

   After last night he is now - .200 and 206 Ks - he is going in the wrong direction.

3. Mags Says:
   September 24th, 2010 at 8:13 am

   And Reynolds went 0-3 with 2 K's last night, bringing it to a .200 BA with 206 K's. Good Job!

4. Mags Says:
   September 24th, 2010 at 8:13 am

   Beat me to it ; )

5. joseph taverney Says:
   September 24th, 2010 at 8:40 am

   Reynolds will also join a very short list of guys who have hit under .210 with 30 HR.
   Kingman did it twice.Thats it. Pena, at 27 HR, has an outside shot this year. If you expand the list to 25 HR, Rob Deer makes three appearances as does Big Mac's swan song season.

   Pretty weird that 30 HR was done only by Kingman, now has a shot at being done twice this year.
   Another rare feat; having >30 IBBs while <100 BBs was only done twice before. Kevin Mitchell in '89 and Vlad Gurrero in '02. This year, three guys are on pace to accomplish the rarity. Adrian Gonzalez, Pujols, Cabrera.

6. Andy Says:
   September 24th, 2010 at 8:45 am

   Good stuff, Joseph. Thanks.

7. James Says:
   September 24th, 2010 at 9:09 am

   Reynolds, in all his terribleness, also currently has more than twice as many strikeouts as hits. Has anyone besides Rob Deer in 1991 with more than a tiny amount of at bats ever accomplished this feat?

8. vinnie Says:
   September 24th, 2010 at 9:12 am

   This is also the first time that anyone has gotten to 200 strike outs before they reached 100 hits and also the first time for a full time player to have at least twice as many strike outs as hits in a season.

9. Andy Says:
   September 24th, 2010 at 9:19 am

   Most hits with at least twice as many strikeouts:

   Rk	Player	H	SO	Year	Age	Tm	G	PA	AB	R	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BB	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS	Pos
   1	Mark Reynolds	98	206	2010	26	ARI	141	584	489	78	17	2	32	84	81	.200	.322	.440	.762	*5/3
   2	Rob Deer	80	175	1991	30	DET	134	539	448	64	14	2	25	64	89	.179	.314	.386	.700	*9
   3	Dave Nicholson	60	126	1964	24	CHW	97	350	294	40	6	1	13	39	52	.204	.329	.364	.693	*7/9
   4	Mark McGwire	56	118	2001	37	STL	97	364	299	48	4	0	29	64	56	.187	.316	.492	.808	*3
   5	Nate Colbert	37	83	1975	29	TOT	83	260	237	26	8	3	8	29	22	.156	.231	.316	.547	*3
   6	Ryan Langerhans	35	81	2007	27	TOT	125	244	210	27	7	2	6	23	29	.167	.272	.305	.576	*78/9
   7	Brandon Wood	33	68	2010	25	LAA	75	229	214	20	2	0	4	14	6	.154	.184	.220	.403	*56/D3
   8	Andruw Jones	33	76	2008	31	LAD	75	238	209	21	8	1	3	14	27	.158	.256	.249	.505	*8/D
   9	Russell Branyan	32	69	2007	31	TOT	89	194	163	22	5	1	10	26	28	.196	.320	.423	.743	57/3D
   10	Rob Deer	30	71	1985	24	SFG	78	187	162	22	5	1	8	20	23	.185	.283	.377	.660	793
   11	Dave Nicholson	30	76	1962	22	BAL	97	202	173	25	4	1	9	15	27	.173	.289	.364	.653	798
   12	Cory Snyder	29	60	1991	28	TOT	71	180	166	14	4	1	3	17	9	.175	.216	.265	.481	937/5
   13	Gorman Thomas	29	61	1973	22	MIL	59	172	155	16	7	1	2	11	14	.187	.254	.284	.538	*9/D785
   14	Ray Oyler	29	59	1968	29	DET	111	247	215	13	6	1	1	12	20	.135	.213	.186	.399	*6
   15	Bob Uecker	29	60	1967	32	TOT	80	221	193	17	4	0	3	20	24	.150	.243	.218	.461	*2
   16	David Ross	28	62	2004	27	LAD	70	190	165	13	3	1	5	15	15	.170	.253	.291	.544	*2
   17	Brant Brown	28	62	2000	29	TOT	95	178	162	11	7	0	5	16	13	.173	.237	.309	.546	73/89
   18	Kelly Shoppach	27	63	2010	30	TBR	58	171	142	17	7	0	5	16	20	.190	.314	.345	.659	*2/D
   19	Dave Watkins	26	53	1969	25	PHI	69	174	148	17	2	1	4	12	22	.176	.291	.284	.574	*2/795
   20	Jackie Warner	26	55	1966	22	CAL	45	133	123	22	4	1	7	16	9	.211	.263	.431	.694	*9

   Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
   Generated 9/24/2010.
10. Neil L. Says:
    September 24th, 2010 at 9:54 am

    If strike out rates continue to rise in the major leagues as they have over the past decade, there will be a lot more seasons like Reynolds' on the list.

    I feel ambivalent about a batter who strikes out a lot. On the one hand, it is no worse than any other kind of out except that it has no chance of moving a runner. In addition, it is not as bad as GIDP. On the other hand, it is so frustrating, is such bad optics to see a player whiff in a key situation.

    To come to the point, what are the chances of Mark Reynolds having a long ML career with such lack of contact? Are GM's and fans less tolerant of K's than other outs?

    I haven't seen enough of his games to know if his strike outs are attributable to a long swing or lack of strike zone judgement or both.

11. John Q Says:
    September 24th, 2010 at 10:09 am

    Hard to believe now but Ryan Howard almost won the MVP in 2008. I think he had something like 12 first place votes which is kind of shocking. I think we talked about this before but this has to be one of the worst 2nd place MVP finishes in baseball history.

    It just makes you wonder what sports writers are looking at sometimes. Here's Pujol's and Howard's 2008 lines:

    Pujols: .357/.462/.653, 9.6 WAR, 190 ops+, 160 runs created
    Howard: .251/.339/.543, 2.8 WAR, 124 ops+, 113 runs created

    Not to mention that Howard was playing in a much better hitter's park than Pujols, which helped his slash stat and runs created numbers.

    What do these writers do, just look at the RBI numbers and vote accordingly? It's ironic, the same writers that complain that the "WAR" stat will turn them into non-thinking robots are essentially non-thinking robots with a far more inferior statistic (RBI).

12. Leatherman Says:
    September 24th, 2010 at 10:31 am

    On August 29, 2008, the Phillies lost their 3rd in a row, falling 2 games behind first place with a 73-62 record. They went 19-8 the rest of the way, winning the division by 3 games and charging them for their postseason run. In those 27 games, Ryan Howard batted .367 with 12 HRs and 34 RBIs, to go along with a 1.286 OPS. Obviously, the MVP isn't for the best month, but performing so well in the last month of the season certainly was perceived well by the voters. Remember, Pujols and the Cardinals finished 4th in their division in 2008, falling as far back as 15.5 games in September. I can certainly see why Howard finished 2nd.

13. barkfart Says:
    September 24th, 2010 at 11:58 am

    I think this is one of the signs of the Apocalypse.

14. barkfart Says:
    September 24th, 2010 at 12:03 pm

    And all of those guys are from the last couple decades. It's indicative of what, to me, is ruining the game- undisciplined goons who swing at every pitch as hard as they can and hope for the best. No knowledge of how to work a count, and no desire to try. Worse than that, owners and general managers embrace these gorillas.

15. John Q Says:
    September 24th, 2010 at 12:18 pm

    Leatherman,

    There's no doubt that a lot of the voters were swayed by Howard's September but that really doesn't make sense when you think about it. It's the MVP of 2008 not Sept 2008. It's funny that Howard received a lot of credit for what he did in Sept yet few brought up the fact that Howard's .213 August & .172 April contributed to the Phillies struggles. He was 122/522 for the first 5 months of the season for a .233 average playing in a great hitter's park no less.

    It's just an odd way to look at something. The Phillies wouldn't have been in second place if Howard had played half way decently during the first 5 months of the season. Then to reward him and act like he "saved" the Phillies season is an equally odd way of looking at it. Its kind of like rewarding a student for having a great Friday after doing basically nothing Mon-Thurs.

16. Malcolm Says:
    September 24th, 2010 at 1:21 pm

    Pujols was the deserving MVP winner in 2008 and he did win the award, so I don't see why it matters who came in second. Ryan Braun and his 2.0 WAR finished third in MVP voting that year, ahead of players like Lance Berkman, Chase Utley, David Wright, C.C. Sabathia, Chipper Jones, Hanley Ramirez, and many others who in many respects had much better seasons, and I've never heard anyone complain about that... if your team makes the playoffs, you usually get more MVP votes. That's a trend that has always existed in baseball.

17. TheGoof Says:
    September 24th, 2010 at 1:24 pm

    Bark, for some of the guys, that's true. But Cust, Deer and Dunn also took/take walks. Perhaps some of that was pitcher fear, but it's one thing to swing like a goon and end up with just homers or Ks. It's another if you take the count deep. Ruth drew lots and lots of walks despite being a free swinger, and I'm sure many if not most were unintentional, particularly once Gehrig emerged.

    Smart GMs like OBP. Some guys get a good OBP by taking lots of pitches, and that means a lot of second and third strikes other batters don't get. If you build an entire team around sluggers with high Ks and BBs, you probably won't win, but one or two Dunns can actually be healthy.

18. joseph taverney Says:
    September 24th, 2010 at 1:24 pm

    @ Barkfart,

    I don't think Reynolds or Howard are just swinging as hard as they can. They both walk too much. I'm not sure of the numbers, but I bet Reynolds sees a boatload of pitches every season. In MoneyBall, Billy Beane stressed 'pitches per at bat' as much as anything, the ability to drive up pitch counts in an era where great starters give way to mediocre relievers after 100 pitches, makes having a guy who looks at 5 pitches per at bat pretty important.
    But I do know what you are saying. Eddie Murray, one of my favorite players, said he had three swings, depending on the situation and the count. He said he rarely tried to hit a homerun with 2 strikes. This is from a guy with 500 career HRs that never exceeded 33 in a season, and only SO >100 times his rookie year.
    SO are up for a couple of reasons though.
    The era of 4 pitchers a game, has allowed relievers to come in and throw as hard as they can, knowing they will only have to throw 20 pitches max. If you look at the highest K/9 for pitchers with at least 60 Gs, all the leaders are from the '00s. Dibble is the only guy on the list from before '97.
    Carlos Marmol will break the record this year with over 15Ks per 9IP.
    It is also easier to run up high SO totals if you are always working the count.
    I noticed so few hitters swing at the first pitch anymore, just to keep pitchers honest, it seems like everyone is starting their atbats 0-1.

19. John Autin Says:
    September 24th, 2010 at 1:36 pm

    "Reynolds has virtually no shot at NOT setting this record."

    Actually, no. Reynolds has already had several streaks of games in his young career whose combination of hits, AB and strikeouts, when added to his current season totals, would leave him with more points of BA than strikeouts.

    Let's say Reynolds plays 6 to 8 of Arizona's remaining 9 games. Here are some of his past streaks that would keep him from setting this unwanted record:

    -- In 8 games from Aug. 3-10, 2009, he went 14 for 32 with 8 Ks. That would leave him at .215 with 214 Ks.
    -- In 8 games from May 21-28, 2007, he went 13 for 28, with 4 Ks. That would give him a .215 BA and 210 Ks.
    -- In 7 games from Sept. 17-25, 2007, he went 13 for 27 with 8 Ks. That would leave him with a .215 BA and 214 Ks.
    -- In 6 games from Aug. 8-15, 2007, he went 13 for 24 with 6 Ks. That would produce a .216 BA with 212 Ks.

    Or another route: Reynolds goes 5 for 8 in 2 games, without striking out, then decides he already owns enough strikeout records and sits out the rest of the season. He'd finish with a .207 BA and 206 Ks.

20. Andy Says:
    September 24th, 2010 at 1:40 pm

    He's striking out more often now than he did in 2007. It's not likely. Point taken, John, but I still say not likely.

21. Gerry Says:
    September 24th, 2010 at 5:26 pm

    Dave Nicholson - a man ahead of his times.

22. Richard Says:
    September 24th, 2010 at 5:26 pm

    Might be jumping the gun saying he'll be out of the league soon. He did just have a 127 OPS+ last season. It seems, more than anything, he just struggled with righthanders this year. He CRUSHED lefties to the tune of .948 OPS. His walk rate has also gone up each season.

    He may be platooned if he shows he can only handle lefties in the future, but out of the league entirely seems doubtful.

23. Richard Says:
    September 24th, 2010 at 5:30 pm

    "It's indicative of what, to me, is ruining the game"

    This reminds me of Tom's post from the Bautista thread: the only constant in baseball is complaining the game isn't the way it used to be.

24. Richard Says:
    September 24th, 2010 at 5:30 pm

    is people* complaining

25. DoubleDiamond Says:
    September 24th, 2010 at 7:30 pm

    @10 It's rare, but runners can still move along during strikeouts.

    First, there are the dropped (or missed) third strikes that allow the batter to make it to first base. I know there's some rule that has something to do with whether or not first base is occupied, to allow the batter to do this in the first place, but I do know that whether or not there's a runner on third doesn't matter. I know the Phillies had a walk-off win against the Cubs on a dropped third strike a few years ago.

    And wild pitches and passed balls can happen on earlier pitches in the at-bat that eventually culminates in a strike out. Stolen bases, errors on pick-offs and attempted steals, and balks, too. With at least three pitches required for a strikeout (at least under current rules), there are sometimes opportunities for runners to advance while the batter is in the process of striking out.

    But it's true that these are unusual events that teams should not count on.

    Then again, when the team I'm rooting for is at the plate and there's a runner on first with one out (or none out), the lesser of two evils is for the batter to strike out than hit into a double play.

26. Neil L Says:
    September 24th, 2010 at 8:36 pm

    @26
    Double, I have huge respect for your grasp of baseball "truths".

    However, the probability of a runner advancing on a SO as opposed to another kind of out is very low.

    What is a more thorny issue is the effect of an SO on run potential in an inning compared to a "contact" out with runners on base which includes the possibility of a GIDP.

27. KenH Says:
    September 24th, 2010 at 9:17 pm

    My old baseball coach used to sit me down for less. What's Reynold's making a year?

28. James Says:
    September 25th, 2010 at 10:59 am

    @Joseph

    Don't most strikeout hitters see a lot of pitches? You have to face at least three pitches to strike out, and occasionally Reynolds gets lucky and fouls off a pitch with two strikes. Reynolds faces the same number of pitches per plate appearance as Rob Deer (4.15 and 4.14 career numbers, respectively). During Reynolds' career, the MLB average is 3.81. So if you faced Reynolds 25 times it would take only nine more pitches (104) than it would 25 average hitters (95). Or another way of looking at it is that having Reynolds bat four times in your lineup increases the pitch count for the game by only one pitch. Not much reward for all those strikeouts.

29. barkfart Says:
    September 25th, 2010 at 4:24 pm

    Richard, 23 and 24, more than a little harsh (though maybe more than a little true).

    As for the strikeout guy who walks a lot (Deer, Thome, etc), I don't believe it. Though I lack the stat sorting ability to back it up, I think those guys drew a lot of "safety walks". Conversely, I'd wager that their late inning, RISP strikeout rate is even worse- as in, closers kill these guys even worse when there are no safety walks.

30. Neil L Says:
    September 25th, 2010 at 6:54 pm

    @29
    Barkfart, cut me slack, but what is a "safety walk"? Never heard the term before in all my baseball years.

31. paul Says:
    September 25th, 2010 at 7:31 pm

    Report Created on Baseball-Reference.com

32. Chuck Says:
    September 26th, 2010 at 4:02 pm

    "And wild pitches and passed balls can happen on earlier pitches in the at-bat that eventually culminates in a strike out. Stolen bases, errors on pick-offs and attempted steals, and balks, too. With at least three pitches required for a strikeout (at least under current rules), there are sometimes opportunities for runners to advance while the batter is in the process of striking out."

    Single dumbest comment in the history of the internet.

33. Brian Says:
    September 26th, 2010 at 7:41 pm

    @ John Autin

    Watched the D-backs game today; Reynolds was benched in favor of Tony Abreau who produced a clutch 2 run homer in the eighth. Don't think Reynolds is going to get an opportunity to streak in the last six games on the road. Moreover, Reynolds has been in a horrendous slump the entire month. Hasn't hit a home run in September after hitting eight in August. As for why this happens, Neil S speculated about a long swing; I think that's it.

    Now as for the D-backs team strikeout follies they had 14 today, putting them at 1458 for the season with six games left on the road against the Giants and Padres. I have all the confidence in the world that they'll avoid 1500 Ks, don't you? But when all is said and done, maybe we overestimate the strikeout, seeing as the D-Backs are going to end up scoring about 720 runs for the season -- which is about the MLB historical average

34. Johnny Twisto Says:
    September 27th, 2010 at 2:56 pm

    You're right Chuck, but I doubt we're talking about the same comment.

35. Scott F Says:
    September 29th, 2010 at 6:59 pm

    Reynolds is nothing but a clown, and he's a bad fielder. He should be canned immediately. If I were Arizona, I would dump him on the nearest sucker who is willing to take him. Failing that, I would try to sell him to a little league team for a bucket of used baseballs.