Most runs scored, no earned runs
Posted by Andy on August 5, 2010
Yesterday Neil and I briefly chatted about a 1930 game with an incorrect box score attributing no RBI despite 16 runs being scored. Apparently there was some sort of error at Retrosheet and those guys are going to fix it. But it got me to wondering about legitimate such cases. Click through for more.
Here are the games where a team allowed the most runs despite not allowing any earned runs:
| Rk | Date | Tm | Opp | Rslt | IP | H | R | ER | BB | SO | HR |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | 1985-07-27 (1) | HOU | NYM | L 4-16 | 8.0 | 15 | 16 | 0 | 3 | 4 | 1 |
| 2 | 1960-09-30 | PIT | MLN | L 2-13 | 9.0 | 17 | 13 | 0 | 4 | 9 | 2 |
| 3 | 1990-07-22 | MIN | NYY | L 6-10 | 9.0 | 10 | 10 | 0 | 3 | 2 | 1 |
| 4 | 1945-09-10 (1) | CHW | WSH | L 4-10 | 8.0 | 11 | 10 | 0 | 4 | 1 | 0 |
| 5 | 1945-06-07 | BRO | NYG | L 5-10 | 8.0 | 7 | 10 | 0 | 7 | 4 | 0 |
| 6 | 1985-08-11 | OAK | SEA | L 6-9 | 8.0 | 13 | 9 | 0 | 3 | 2 | 0 |
| 7 | 1947-08-29 | PHI | BSN | L 2-9 | 9.0 | 17 | 9 | 0 | 4 | 2 | 0 |
| 8 | 1945-08-19 (2) | WSH | CLE | L 3-9 | 8.0 | 8 | 9 | 0 | 6 | 6 | 0 |
| 9 | 1932-06-07 | DET | NYY | L 2-9 | 9.0 | 8 | 9 | 0 | 6 | 5 | 0 |
As you might imagine, these are not the prettiest games ever played. Click through the game account for that Mets/Astros game...it's error after error followed by hit after hit.
If we search more along the lines of what Neil was discussing--RBI = 0 and most runs scored--we find lots of games from the 1920s and 1930s. First up is the 1930 game in question although this is clearly an error where RBIs were simply not recorded. Looking at the rest of that list, most of the top games are from the 1920s and 1930s and I'm guessing there are a fair number of box score errors in there. The first game not from those decades is this 1971 Astros/Reds game where the Reds scored 5 runs with the help of several errors.
August 5th, 2010 at 7:26 am
There has to be errors in that Mets/Astros game as well. While I'm not the greatest at determining what is and isnt an unearned run, I know that Ray Knight hit a home run in the 7th and even the run he scored from that home run is unearned. How is that possible?
August 5th, 2010 at 7:45 am
Good point Jim. Also, Dykstra's run in the bottom of the 5th looks legit to me.
August 5th, 2010 at 8:13 am
If an error prolongs an inning instead of resulting in the third out, then any runs scored after that error are unearned.
However (and please correct me if I am wrong), there is a quirk in the scorer's rules here. If, after the inning is prolonged, the defensive team changes pitchers, it is possible that any runs allowed by the new pitcher may be charged to him as earned runs yet only charged to the team as unearned runs. I'm not sure how you reconcile that in the box score.
August 5th, 2010 at 8:16 am
@JIM - The run from the home run can still be unearned as long as a previous error would have ended the inning. If an there is an error for what would have been the 3rd out, any runs that follow are unearned regardless how they are scored.
August 5th, 2010 at 8:51 am
Completely off topic ...
Yesterday, Edwin Jackson struck out a batter but the ball bounced off the catcher back to the mound. Jackson calmly threw the ball to first base to retire the batter. We're used to seeing catchers do that all the time when they don't catch strike three, but I don't recall seeing a pitcher do that before. How common is it for a pitcher to record an assist (with the putout by the first baseman) on a strikeout? Can Play Index find that?
August 5th, 2010 at 8:54 am
amazingly the Astros starting pitcher is the same i mentioned 2 days ago
http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/7691
so Bob Knepper is both:
the sole hit destroying Jimmy Jones perfect game in his debut 1986
and
the starting pitcher in the game where the most unearned runs with no earned run were scored
August 5th, 2010 at 9:53 am
Dykstra's run in the fifth was unearned because the flyball that he tagged up and scored on should have been the third out.
August 5th, 2010 at 10:16 am
So if there are two outs in an inning, and a fielding error allows a batter to reach on what should have been the third out, any subsequent runs, weather its 1 or a million runs all on home runs, are unearned runs
August 5th, 2010 at 10:55 am
excuse me? In the Mets and Astros game, the box score shows two of the pitchers for the Mets gave up earned runs, two each in fact, plus it shows no errors by the Mets. What I am missing? Maybe you did the missing? Anyway, fun info.
August 5th, 2010 at 11:00 am
Follow-up. Oh well, it was me, I thought the focus is on most runs in a game, not just by one team. My mistake, sorry. Then makes me wonder the most runs scored by both teams in the same game where none were earned. Your move. As always, thanks for the information.
August 5th, 2010 at 11:08 am
Jim brings up a good point. I think the title "Earned Runs" is a bit of a misnomer. Surely, if a fielder boots a ground ball that allows a runner to score, the pitcher can't really be held responsible for that. But if a fielder kicks a ground ball with 2 outs and then the pitcher proceeds to give up a home run, the pitcher is partially responsible. I guess that's part of the reason why a pitchers ERA isn't a completely accurate reflection of how well he performs.
August 5th, 2010 at 11:16 am
The 1960 Pirates-Braves game shouldn't be on the list. None of the three Pirates errors figured in the scoring, and all 13 Braves runs were earned.
August 5th, 2010 at 11:37 am
I'd be suspicious of those three 1945 games also. We don't have play-by-play info to say for sure, but since there were no errors by either team in any of those games, the official scorer may simply have neglected to write down the losing team's earned-run total. (Dodger pitchers' three wild pitches versus the Giants' scoring in five separate innings — sorry, I'm not convinced.)
August 5th, 2010 at 11:38 am
Just to clarify. It doesn't matter which of the 3 outs was not made because of the error, all runs after what "should" have been the 3rd out are unearned. For example, an inning goes Error, allowing the batter to safely reach base when he should not have, Out, HR, Out, Walk, HR, Out. The 1st run is unearned because he never would have reached but for the error. The second run is earned. The last 2 runs are unearned because both reached after there would have been 3 outs except for the error.
Andy, a very trivial department of the unimportant department matter. (Or is that an unimportant department of the trivial department matter.) In most of your posts for some time now the initial paragraph ends with, "Click through for more". What I see on both the computers at home and at work, there is never any clicking to do, the text and tables or graphs just continue on the same page. No prob, just sayin; one of life's little mysteries.
August 5th, 2010 at 11:47 am
Rule 10.16(i) clears up my earlier question. It reads:
"When pitchers are changed during an inning, the relief pitcher shall not have the benefit of previous chances for outs not accepted in determining earned runs."
"Rule 10.16(i) Comment: It is the intent of Rule 10.16(i) to charge a relief pitcher with earned runs for which such relief pitcher is solely responsible. In some instances, runs charged as earned against the relief pitcher can be charged as unearned against the team."
August 5th, 2010 at 11:53 am
Kahuna, I also notice the 1947 Braves-Phils game had 9 unearned runs with no errors committed by either team. If a player scores as the result of a passed ball or wild pitch is that considered unearned? What about dropped third strike or catcher intereference
August 5th, 2010 at 11:57 am
From wboenig's post #3: "If, after the inning is prolonged, the defensive team changes pitchers, it is possible that any runs allowed by the new pitcher may be charged to him as earned runs yet only charged to the team as unearned runs."
He's got it right. Here's an explanation copied from BaseballEvolution.com's Scorer's Corner.
"Generally speaking, an error committed with two outs that allows a batter to reach safely causes any runs scored later in the inning to be unearned. However, a relief pitcher brought in during an inning cannot benefit from an error committed while the previous pitcher was on the mound." Any such runs are called "team unearned runs" — unearned for the team, but earned for the relief pitcher. Game #6 in Andy's table furnishes an example.
August 5th, 2010 at 12:02 pm
Interesting rule, I never knew that. I consider myself to be very knowledgeable of the game but was never sure exactly when a run was earned or unearned. I am quite surprised to find that a pitcher can have an unearned from a home run.
August 5th, 2010 at 12:12 pm
@Jim: That is basically correct. The scorer has to go play by play and determine what would have happened if the error had actually been an out. In the 7th inning, Dykstra should have been out on a sacrifice (1), Backman strikes out (2), and Hernandez's FC should be the third out. It looks like they threw home and didn't get the runner because Hernandez ends up on first and the scorer determined that a normal play, throwing to first, would have retired the batter. From that point on, all the runs are unearned.
@ Wboeing: Rule 10.16(i) The relief pitcher shall not have the benefit of previous chances for outs not accepted in determining earned runs. To continue the example in the 7th, if Madden had allowed a run it would have been earned because he does not get the 'benefit' of the previous pitcher's errors.
August 5th, 2010 at 12:24 pm
I think the only case that's ambiguous is errors that allow runners to advance, who then score, but may or may not have scored if not for the error. I believe that's at the discretion of the scorer. In the Mets-Astros game, Dykstra's run in the 3rd inning would fall in this category. The other fifteen runs were either scored by players who reached on errors, or scored after the inning should have been over.
August 5th, 2010 at 12:25 pm
That quirk in the scoring rules for RP is odd. I think this would be evident in adding up a team's earned runs over a season vs. the team total, but have never really noticed the discrepancy.
@Jim Passed Balls are considered the same as errors, while wild pitchers are not as it is the pitcher's fault. Not entirely sure but I believe the Catcher's Interference would also lead to an unearned run. The dropped third strike would depend on whether it was a PB or WP.
August 5th, 2010 at 12:42 pm
Follow up on catcher's interference (which just happened in the Twins v. Rays game): Catcher is charged with an error and only the batter who reaches is an unearned run.
<a href="http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2008/08/the_world_of_ca.php"More on CI
August 5th, 2010 at 12:44 pm
Fail on HTML 🙁
More on CI
August 5th, 2010 at 12:46 pm
Re: sfduke76 (#2) -- I agree with your suspicion that Dykstra's run in the 5th should have been earned. If you reconstruct the inning without the errors, Dykstra's double would have put him on 2nd base with 2 outs. Backman then singled. Dykstra did not score on that hit, and the play-by-play does not tell us where the ball was hit or how hard. But if that hit reached the outfield, Dykstra almost certainly would have scored with 2 out.
To the broader question of unearned runs ... I think that stat has pretty much lost whatever significance it ever had, due to the maddening reluctance of today's official scorers to charge an error on any but the most glaring misplays. And there are inherent problems with the idea of unearned runs to begin with, including the "fallacy of the predetermined outcome," i.e., the assumption that, absent the error, everything else would have happened exactly the same way. In that Mets-Astros game, for example, Rafael Santana reached on an error leading off the 5th, and as a direct result, Sid Fernandez laid down a sac bunt. Obviously, without the error, El Sid would have swung away, and given his .182 lifetime BA, the chance of him getting a hit was not negligible.
August 5th, 2010 at 1:48 pm
The trick with CI is that although the batter is an unearned run and the cather gets an error, it does not count as 1 of the 3 outs being missed because the at-bat was not complete so you cannot assume the batter would have been out. So if it goes CI, out, out, HR the CI run is always unearned but the HR is earned.
August 5th, 2010 at 3:51 pm
If my memory serves (and for once, I believe it does), te 1960 Pirates game was their last of the season, and te Bucs were more concerned with their upcoming World Series -- the one with the famous Mazeroski homer -- than with adding one more "W" to a total that had already won te pennant for them.
August 5th, 2010 at 5:40 pm
All 10 of those unearned runs in the Twins-Yankees game from 1990 were allowed by Andy Hawkins. I remember wondering about this a year or 2 ago, and Hawkins came up as having allowed the most unearned runs looking at individual games.
Everybody knows about his 4-0 no-hit loss, so I find it rather amusing that he would have something like that happen to him as well.
August 5th, 2010 at 5:46 pm
Actually, scratch that. It was this game the year before where Hawkins allowed 10 runs, all unearned. The Orioles scored some earned runs later, however, so that does not appear here. http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/NYA/NYA198906050.shtml I am not mistaken, however, in that being the individual pitcher record more most runs allowed, all unearned.
Of course, Hawkins ALSO started that Twins-Yankees game, but at least was on the right side in that one. What a quirky few experiences that guy had in his career.
August 5th, 2010 at 7:07 pm
It's always been a peeve of mine that allows a pitcher to have an unearned run based on an error by said pitcher...
August 6th, 2010 at 9:38 am
Thomas, the offense still didn't "earn" the run, regardless who made the error.
There are so few errors and unearned runs these days that it probably doesn't make that much difference. But we should never completely ignore the unearned runs a pitcher allows. Some of them are the pitcher's fault, to a degree. The further one goes back in history, the more unearned runs there were, and they could really affect how we should evaluate a pitcher's performance (and/or his defensive support).
August 6th, 2010 at 9:54 am
[...] Most runs scored, no earned runs (Baseball-Reference). Speaking of horrible defense, here’s a fun list. At the top is a contest between the Astros and Mets on July 27, 1985. All 16 runs allowed by Houston pitchers were unearned in that one. Amazing. [...]
August 6th, 2010 at 10:12 am
Twisto.... but it's still the pitchers fault that the run scored. It's one of those runs that should be counted as an unearned run for the team, but earned for the pitcher.
I'm not sure how you can tell me it's not the pitchers fault?
August 6th, 2010 at 10:34 am
I'm not saying it's not the pitcher's fault, but it's not directly related to his pitching, and runs are considered earned or unearned from the batting team's perspective. A run that is scored as a result of an error is unearned. That's just how it is.
You're certainly free to penalize pitchers for giving up runs on their own errors if you want to.
August 6th, 2010 at 3:14 pm
@kds #14:
My references to 'click through' are due to the insertion of a 'more' tag in the HTML code. When posts with a more tag are displayed in an RSS reader (such as Google, Bloglines, or many others) OR when you look at the main page of the B-R blog, posts are displayed only down to the 'more' tag. This allows more posts to fit on a page to allow readers to more easily see more context and choose which ones to click on to read the full story.
If you're not seeing them, you might just be viewing each post on its own page, in which case the 'more' tag is ignored when displayed.
More sophisticated browsers will add text themselves when there is a more tag (inviting readers to click through to view the rest) but in case anybody is using a reader that doesn't have that functionality, I like to write it in my post so that nobody gets confused and misses the rest of the post.
August 7th, 2010 at 12:41 pm
Thanks Andy,
Thought it might be something like that. I've updated my computer skills some since my 1st college programming course, where all entry was done with punch cards!
August 7th, 2010 at 6:13 pm
Re Zim (#21)
The rule on having a run scored thanks to a WP being earned since it's "the pitcher's fault" brings a question -- under that logic, shouldn't a run resulting from E1 also be earned?
I know it isn't, but just asking...
August 8th, 2010 at 2:13 pm
@36 - I thought I recalled reading somewhere years ago that a run scoring because of the pitcher's own error was considered to be an earned run. But apparently it's not. And here's why I think that a run resulting from a pitcher's error can be unearned, but one resulting from a wild pitch is not.
The wild pitch resulted from the pitcher's action as a pitcher. The error resulted from the pitcher's action as a fielder, usually playing a role that effectively makes him a fourth infielder (or fifth, if you consider the catcher to be an infielder once a ball has been put into play). On many plays in which the pitcher ultimately gets the putout or assist on a ball in play, another infielder had a shot at it. Now, it's true that maybe the pitcher should have let another infielder make the play on which the pitcher was charged with an error. But this type of situation leading to an error can also occur when two non-pitchers in the field have a shot at making the play, and the one who ends up trying to make the play makes an error that maybe the other guy wouldn't have made.
Also, it's true that the follow-ups of many pitchers leave them in a poor position to make a fielding play (I remember Mitch Williams being especially bad in this regard). In this case, the act of pitching may still be a factor in causing the pitcher to make an error on the batted ball. However, it may be asking a bit too much of an official scorer to determine whether or not the pitcher's follow-through was responsible for the error (thus leading to an earned run) or whether it would have happened anyway (thus not leading to an earned run).