Lou Piniella thoughts
Posted by Andy on July 21, 2010
With Lou Piniella announcing his retirement effective at the end of the season, following are some random thoughts I have about the guy:
- Has anyone ever made the Hall of Fame based on combined achievements as a player and as a manager? Neither one alone for Piniella would be enough but perhaps some voters would give him the nod based on combined performance.
- As a player he appeared in 4 World Series, winning 2 in 1977 and 1978 with the Yankees.
- As a manager his team won its division 6 times out of 23 seasons, including one World Series win (1990 Reds).
- On numerous occasions I heard Piniella refer to "Rawl EYE-buh-nez" which is how he pronounced Raul Ibanez.
- In 1973, Piniella posted one of the very worst seasons in history by a position player. He was one of just 19 guys since 1901 to post a season with a WAR of -3.0 or worse. Note that Jeff Francouer and Brian Giles are recent additions to this list.
- And while Piniella gets a lot of credit for his contributions to the 1978 Yankees, his 4.0 WAR that year was just 46th best in baseball that season, behind Yankees teammates Graig Nettles and Willie Randolph.
- The Seattle Mariners had their first winning season in 1991 under Jim Lefebvre but didn't become consistent winners until Piniella arrived. They made the playoffs for the first time in 1995 with Sweet Lou and 4 times total in his 10 seasons with the Mariners.
- Piniella had an overall winning record for every team he managed, except for the Rays during their dark startup period.
- Speaking of Seattle teams, the Seattle Pilots drafted Piniella as part of the 1969 expansion draft, then promptly traded him at the end of spring training to the Kansas City Royals. He went on the win the AL Rookie of the Year that season...oops. Jim Bouton commented on this trade in Ball Four, noting at the time that he felt Piniella was one of the team's best players and yet he got traded away.
July 21st, 2010 at 9:45 am
#1 Every manager with at least 6 post season appearances is in the HOF. Lou has 7.
#2 A WS win as a player generally is not a precursor to the HOF
#3 Your stat is incorrect. Its 7 not 6. See #1
#4 Who cares how he pronounced Raul Ibanez? Its got nothing to do with Cooperstown.
#5 WAR is the worst stat and anyone who recites it is clueless to REAL stats.
#6 See #5
#7 The Mariners are Lou's #1 success story.
#8 Is an argument FOR the HOF
#9 Has no bearing on the HOF as he was not a HOF player. No HOF managers were HOF players!
July 21st, 2010 at 10:01 am
How did Lou's mom get a login?
July 21st, 2010 at 10:04 am
I think that HOF inductees are designated as either players or managers. Nevertheless there are a few who probably made it based on their combined achievements:
Red Schoendienst: A good player, an All-Star. Probably not worthy of the HOF, but as a middle infielder with about 2500 hits, the type of player who could have been inducted anyway. A short but successful managerial career which included the '67 and '68 pennant winners. He was inducted as a player, but the managing probably put him over the top.
Al Lopez: Inducted as a manager. Won the only two pennants the Yankees didn't win from 1949 through 1964. A consistent winner. Career looks a little short but at the time he retired I think he was in the top 10 in managerial wins. Probably would eventually get in just as a manager but a long, solid playing career may have pushed him over the edge.
Frank Chance: Inducted as a player. He was a really great player but was hurt a lot and only played 1288 games. Maybe he would have been rewarded for his peak abilities, maybe the poem would have helped get him in. He also managed those Cubs of the Aughts, one of the most successful franchises ever, and for that he probably would have been inducted as a manager too.
There are several others who had notable careers as both players and managers, but I believe were worthy of the HOF when considering only one side of the ledger.
I don't feel like Piniella is a HOF manager, though I am sure he will get some support. He had a decent career; I'm not sure it's quite good enough to help get him in. To the extent voters consider combined achievements, one probably needs to be close to the threshold in both areas. 50% of a HOF playing career and 50% of a HOF managing career isn't worthy. 75% of both might be.
July 21st, 2010 at 10:08 am
I wouldn't consider Piniella's era the Rays' "startup period." He took over in their 6th season. He never seemed very interested in being there or teaching a young team to play.
He won ROY 5 years after his major league debut.
July 21st, 2010 at 10:10 am
My last paragraph of #3, I meant "he had a decent PLAYING career..." Obviously his managerial career is more than decent.
July 21st, 2010 at 10:18 am
As a side note, when he earned rookie of the year with KC, he had already had cups of coffee with BAL and CLE. He also spent time in the Senators organization and of course spent spring training with the Pilots.
So KCR was actually the 5th organization that gave him a paycheck. Has any ROY ever come close to that figure?
July 21st, 2010 at 10:18 am
Piniella's playing career should be dropped completely from the discussion. Adds nothing to his case. For most of his career he was a 4th-OF/part-time DH.
July 21st, 2010 at 10:21 am
I don't understand why WAR is the worst stat. I mean its the best stat we have that relates a player in terms of the most importnat part of baseball: winning.
July 21st, 2010 at 10:33 am
No, his teams won their division 6 times, not 7. Piniella made the playoffs one other year with the Mariners as the WC.
I meant to mention the 116-win team he managed, too. Quite impressive.
By the way, #1, you seem to think I am suggesting one thing or another about Piniella and the HOF. I'm not...
July 21st, 2010 at 10:35 am
Some very good discussion going on: http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/newsstand/discussion/s.i._sheehan_why_lou_piniella_is_a_hall_of_famer/
The "Dag Nabbit" in those comments is Chris Jaffe, a former poster over here and writer of a book on managers.
July 21st, 2010 at 10:37 am
Though, Andy, I agree with #1 that the Raul Ibanez thing, while funny, has nothing to do with his HOF qualifications.
July 21st, 2010 at 10:38 am
@Reply #1: Several of your comments are talking about how Andy's points aren't related to the HOF. As this post isn't about the HOF, his comments are on topic, while yours are off.
@Jim: I wouldn't call WAR the worst stat, and if it actually did what you said it did (i.e. what it purports to do), then it would be the best stat. However, it doesn't really seem to do that effectively; I have doubts about its numbers in the position, ROE, baserunning, and especially defensive areas as well as some minor concerns in other areas. Obviously no stat is ever going to be perfect.
July 21st, 2010 at 10:41 am
Hellooooooooooo.....the post says they are random thoughts. One bullet point, not all of them, has to do with HOF. And I have a big problem with people pronouncing others' names incorrectly. I don't condemn Piniella for that one thing--just mentioning it more as an anecdote.
July 21st, 2010 at 10:49 am
Although it has only existed since 1983,
Multiple Manager of Year Award Winners:
Cox (4)
La Russa (4)
Dusty Baker (3)
Leyland (3)
Piniella (3)
Sparky Anderson (2)
McKeon (2)
Lasorda (2)
Scioscia (2)
Torre (2)
July 21st, 2010 at 10:51 am
I have generally found manager of the year winners better picks, on average, than Cy Young and MVP winners. They do usually seem to go to managers who did more with less, and/or whose teams made big turnarounds due to more than just cycling of luck. But I never looked at it closely. Anybody else have opinions on this?
July 21st, 2010 at 10:55 am
I think you are somewhat right Andy but I have a different perspective on it. The winner tends to be the manager of a team which exceeded preseason expectations, but as often as not I think the expectations could have simply been wrong. It's not necessarily the manager turning a 70-win team into a 90-win team through sheer force of will.
I also always find it amusing when a Manager of the Year is fired a couple seasons later.
July 21st, 2010 at 10:57 am
My thought on managers is that they don't influence the games nearly as much as the average fan thinks in terms of in-game decisions, but they have a tremendous affect on things like confidence. Getting players to buy into their roles and be successful in them, knowing when to push a player and when to back off, etc...I think these are the areas in which managers are really important and they are pretty much intangible to average fans like us who aren't in the clubhouse.
July 21st, 2010 at 11:04 am
I also missed Buck Showalter with 2 wins.
To tests Andys hunch which I agree with here are the seasons that the manager of the year came from the team with the most wins:
NL: 08, 07, 00, 94, 90, 89, 85, 84, 83 (9 of 27 years)
AL: 07, 05, 01, 00, 98, 97, 94, 92, 91, 88, 87, 85, 84, 83 (14 of 27 years)
So 23/54 = 42% of the time they elect the manager form the team with the most wins. I think that is a very good value because you must assume having the most wins must reflect well on the manager, but the fact that it only gets you the award less than half of the time suggests its not the only consideration. Especailly lately, as it seems like early on they just gave it to the manager with the best record but more recently not necesarily.
July 21st, 2010 at 11:07 am
#2...what do you think the odds are that Piniella's mother is both still alive AND can use a computer?
July 21st, 2010 at 11:07 am
The 7 playoff appearances is a bit deceiving. Joe Torre and Bobby Cox each have 15 playoff appearances and Tony LaRussa has 13. Those three will go into the Hall before Piniella (and Torre had a better playing career than Lou).
Don't just look at the playoff appearances. Look at the pennants. Lou went to 1 WS, while Torre has been to 6 and LaRussa and Cox have been to 5.
I just think that Lou gets lost in the shuffle here. It also doesn't help that players voted for Lou as one of the 2 managers they would least like to play for.
July 21st, 2010 at 11:09 am
She would also probably think it was a good thing that her son was negative with regard to WAR
July 21st, 2010 at 11:12 am
Does Piniella hold the record for most ejections?
July 21st, 2010 at 11:24 am
Anyway the first thing in my mind about Piniella the manager:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31mJNcS9vnY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VO8MAnS4tM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODV3aQRNQTk&feature=related
http://www.seattlepi.com/photos/photo.asp?PhotoID=13710
He really hated arguing with his hat on.
July 21st, 2010 at 11:49 am
@22
Bobby Cox has the record for most managerial ejections with 132 (not sure if that total is up to date for 2010).
July 21st, 2010 at 11:51 am
Djibouti, I believe Bobby Cox broke John McGraw's ejection record a couple years ago. (I'm surprised ejections were tallied accurately in McGraw's day, but apparently so.)
July 21st, 2010 at 12:01 pm
As a scientist by trade, I find it pretty hard to rate a manager based soley upon their teams performance. The only way we could truly see how well a manager managed his club (performance-wise) is to hold every other variable constant (team, opponent's rosters, schedules, etc.) and let each manager manage the same exact team for a season. Obviously this isn't possible so I think we have to look at other aspects. What aspects? That is a good discussion.
July 21st, 2010 at 12:14 pm
Most Ejections (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2914558) Through 2007 only!
Following is a list of managerial ejections only. Hall of Fame manager John McGraw (right) has a total of 131 major league ejections, but 14 came as a player.
1. Bobby Cox 131
2. John McGraw 117
3. Earl Weaver 97
4. Leo Durocher 95
5. Frankie Frisch 82
6. Paul Richards 80
7. Tony La Russa 73
8. Clark Griffith 62
9. Joe Torre 60
10. Lou Piniella 58
11. Bill Rigney 52
12 (tie). Sparky Anderson 47
12 (tie). Mike Hargrove 47
14 (tie). Ralph Houk 45
14 (tie). Billy Martin 45
16. Tom Lasorda 44
17 (tie). Gene Mauch 43
17 (tie). Jim Leyland 43
19 (tie). Jimmy Dykes 42
19 (tie). Phil Garner 42
This list is full of winners and I think that has to do with post #17, players like it when the manager gets ejected taking their side. It pumps up the players and the crowd and getting the players to play with full intensity all season is the biggest (and most difficult and hardest to measure) attribute of a good manager.
July 21st, 2010 at 12:53 pm
"Has anyone ever made the Hall of Fame based on combined achievements as a player and as a manager? Neither one alone for Piniella would be enough but perhaps some voters would give him the nod based on combined performance. "
If they had such a thing as "player/manager combo wing" (which I would approve), I would think it would have Joe Torre (although he will probably get in as a manager anyway, but his player contributions are too good to ignore) and Gil Hodges inducted prior to Lou Piniella. But he definitely would have a chance (his player contributions might be a little lacking, though as he was never one of the top 3 players for any of those Yankee playoff teams)
July 21st, 2010 at 1:42 pm
I had always thought that HOF'amers get in as a player OR a manager, or an Exec, OR some other "Contributions to the game." Al Lopez, while once holding the career games played as a catcher record is in as a manager. So is Wilbert Robinson. Red Schoendienst and Frank Chance, while not the Veteran's committees finest selections are in as players (although I support Red being there).
Torre has not gotten into the Hall because his managerial career cannot be considered. As a player is probably just short, although he might be the best catcher not in the Hall. Gil Hodges would be in if they considered total accomplishments, and the Scooter would have been in much earlier if they took in the whole picture (which I think they should). Torre of course will coast in as soon as he retires from managing, based on his Yankee years.
I think only Max Carey had HOF careers as both an player and a manager.
As for Pinella, I don't think his managerial record deserves a HOF election.
July 21st, 2010 at 2:00 pm
"Torre...although he might be the best catcher not in the Hall."
If you account for the fact that Torre (903 totals games caught) never caught a single inning after age 29 including his MVP year I would have to put Ted Simmons (1771 games caught) as the best C not in...besides Piazza and Pudge obviously.
July 21st, 2010 at 2:01 pm
Actually, he might make the HOF based on what he's accomplished as a manager.
July 21st, 2010 at 2:08 pm
A few others with good careers as both player and manager:
-- Miller Huggins -- HOF as manager (6 pennants, 3 WS with the 1920s Yanks); played 13 years as a 2B (11 full seasons), with a .382 OBP, led the NL in walks 4 times and OBP once, and averaged 97 runs per 162 G during the dead-ball era.
-- Dusty Baker -- 1367-1255 (.521) as manager, 1 pennant, 4 playoffs. Played 19 seasons (15 full), just shy of 2,000 hits, 242 HRs, 116 OPS+.
-- John McGraw -- No-brainer HOFer as a manager, but was also a hell of a player: 16 seasons (12 full), career .334 BA / .466 OBP / 135 OPS+.
-- Casey Stengel -- Like McGraw, slam-dunk HOFer from the MGR side. Played 14 years (10 full), 119 OPS+, his .393 with 2 HRs in 12 WS games.
-- Fred Clarke -- This is interesting: His B-R page says he was inducted as a player, and deservedly so. But I think he's also pretty well qualified as a manager: 1602-1181 (.576), 4 pennants, 1 WS (the WS hadn't been invented yet during his first 2 pennants). Maybe the only man who's in the HOF and qualified from both angles.
-- Billy Southworth -- 2008 VC inductee as manager and rightly so: 1044-704, .597, 4 pennants, 2 WS in just 13 years at the helm. Played 13 years (11 full), 111 OPS+, played a big role in the 1926 WS when the Cards upset the Yanks.
-- Frank Chance -- Inducted as a player, but his performances are almost inseparable; he was a player/manager for 10 of 11 years as a skipper, and his nickname "The Peerless Leader" applied to both realms. Had fewer games than the great majority of HOF players or managers, but was highly successful in those games, in both respects.
July 21st, 2010 at 2:12 pm
If only Baker had only 155 losses...
Baker's had an impressive career all around, that's for sure, especially this year so far.
July 21st, 2010 at 2:21 pm
Also Max Carey only managed for 2 seasons and went 146-161 with no playoffs, and he is a borderline HOFer as a player.
July 21st, 2010 at 2:32 pm
#30, Yes, Torre or Simmons are the best catchers (among eligible players) not in the Hall. It is a tough case as to where Torre should be as a player, but I think (without checking) he played more games as a catcher than as an 3b or 1bman. Does he have more games as a corner infielder than as a catcher?
#32 #34, Sorry, I meant Fred Clarke, Not Max Carey. I don't know what I was thinking!!!!!
July 21st, 2010 at 2:44 pm
Here's a nominee who might be Hall-worthy based only on his combined record: Davey Johnson.
As a player, he was far more than the freak 40-HR season with Atlanta; Johnson was a 4-time All-Star, 3-time Gold Glover, and starting 2B in 4 WS. As a manager, he's 1148-888 (.564), with 5 playoff years out of 14 (plus his Reds were in 1st in '94 when the strike hit), and 1 WS. Went to the postseason with 3 different teams, each of whom he had turned around. He's 13th in W% (min. 1000 G) He's only 42nd in MGR wins, but 19th in games over .500. Davey is almost twice as many G>.500 as Piniella -- and even if you left out Lou's 3 years in Tampa, Davey would still be 39 ahead in that stat.
As players, I think Johnson and Piniella had similar value. Their OPS and OPS+ was virtually the same. Davey had a lower BA but higher OBP. Davey obviously had far more defensive value, but Lou played about 300 more games, equivalent to 2 seasons, and Lou hit better in the postseason.
July 21st, 2010 at 2:47 pm
To Andy (#33) -- Yes, Dusty had 1255 losses. I saw my typo as soon as I posted, but I don't know to correct a post; can it be done?
July 21st, 2010 at 2:52 pm
Not by you, but I just fixed it for you.
July 21st, 2010 at 3:18 pm
LESSCAN (#1) -- "Every manager with at least 6 post season appearances is in the HOF." Drawing threshold lines can be a slippery slope. Do you think Jim Leyland will make the Hall if Detroit gets in the tournament? Even with a sub-.500 record? He does have as many WS wins (1) and more pennants (2) than Sweet Lou. Or Mike Scioscia, if he announced his retirement? He already has 6 postseason appearances and a WS title, though he has just 951 wins.
Furthermore, with the number of teams that make the postseason quadrupling over the last 42 years (while the number of total teams has not quite doubled), it would be silly to maintain a "6-postseason" threshold. The 6 postseason appearances by Miller Huggins (all pennants) mean a bit more than the 6 by Scioscia (1 pennant).
July 21st, 2010 at 3:23 pm
It's not fair to other managers pre-1994 (wild card + 6 divisions) to talk about playoff appearances.
To me Pinella always seemed overrated as a manager. He had four of the best players, A-Rod, Griffey, R. Johnson and Edgar of the last 50 years and he didn't get to ONE world series with them.
Why isn't Danny Murtaugh in the HOF?? He had 2 WS titles, 2 N.L. pennants and 5 division titles? He probably could have padded his stats a little bit more but he died kind of suddenly at the end of 1976.
July 21st, 2010 at 3:38 pm
"Rawl EYE-buh-nez"
One other thing Bouton mentioned about Piniella in Ball Four is that Piniella spoke fluent Spanish. Maybe Lou decided Spanish pronunciation was just too much trouble.
July 21st, 2010 at 3:39 pm
KT, yeah that's right. I had forgotten about Bouton's statement about Piniella's Spanish.
July 21st, 2010 at 3:51 pm
Danny Murtaugh is an interesting case. The Pirates did very well under him. I seem to remember him leaving managing a few times for health reasons. He did not manage in 1965, 1966, 1968, 1969, or 1972. He managed the Pirates in every other season, at least part of a season, from 1957 to 1976.
July 21st, 2010 at 3:57 pm
Yeah, the "every manager who has had six postseason appearances has made the HOF" is very misleading. Lou maybe the first manager to retire who has a chance at the Hall who played during the expanded post-season format. All other managers elected either only had the World Series or the Championship Series rounds. Much easier today to make the post season, although more difficult to win a World Series. Throw that stat out.
July 21st, 2010 at 5:40 pm
i don't know if he's a HOFer, but i just hope he doesn't go back into broadcasting.
July 21st, 2010 at 9:06 pm
Lou Boudreau is in the Hall of Fame as a Player of 16 years:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl/player_search.cgi?search=boudreau
But he was also a Manager for 16 years and was a Player/Manager for 10 years with Cleveland.
In 1948 he was the American League MVP and as player manager the Indians won the World Series
Still, "if" he was only a Manager, he might not have made the Hall of fame, as the 1948 season was his only winner and his teams came in 3rd 2 times.
In 1950 the Indians came in 4th. winning 92, lost 62 in the 154 game season.
July 21st, 2010 at 11:07 pm
I wonder how much of a manager's "skill" is in assembling a staff. Assuming the manager has sole or primary discretion (which seems to be the case in most situations) over his staff, this is a HUGE factor in the success of his/her team. While it's easy to overstate the importance of any individual coach/manager, assembling a talented staff can make a pretty good difference. We've seen how guys like Dave Duncan can make a difference and I don't think we can talk about LaRussa's success without acknowledging Duncan's role.
Unfortunately, most managers seem to just stick their buddies in those spots, which is really a damn shame.
July 22nd, 2010 at 7:19 am
As a die hard Yankee fan, I have a completely different take on Sweet Lou. Loved him as a player with the Yanks and HATED him as a manager. Here is why:
1. As a manager he could not recogonize talent. AS GM/Manager he traded Jose Rijos to the Reds, platooned Jay Buhner while he was with the Yanks and never gave young talent the opportunity to play.
2. He gets to the Reds and almost ruins Paul O'Neil by attempting to change his swing in an effort to make him a dead pull hitter. When that failed, he traded Paul O'Neil to the Yanks for Roberto Kelly. Good trade Lou.
3. He then goes to the Mariners. Jay Buhner has now established himself as one of the top players in the game, so now Lou loves him. With the Mariners he has A-Rod, Buhner, Griffey, Randy Johnson, Tino Martinez and Edgar Martinez and he wins squat. Nothing. Nada. NO pennant and no World Series.
4. Then he goes to Tampa. He could not recogonize all the young talent in that organization, cannot win there and sulks and leaves in the middle of a contract. A few years later, Joe Maddon comes in and takes them to a World Series. Lou again could not recogonzie the talent level.
5. Then he goes to the Cubs, who have a strong team. Three years ago they were picked to WIN IT ALL. What has Lou done? He has made them into a sub .500 club.
Baseball is filled with one time World Series Managers. They are not into the Hall of Fame. Let Lou retire and let him go home and watch TV and attend all timers games at Yankee Stadium.
July 22nd, 2010 at 8:20 am
While Torre had a nice playing career, I'd have to agree that Simmons is the best catcher not in the Hall. Torre will go in as a manager and Simmons should as a player. Lou isn't a HoFer --I agree with #48 that he was overrated as a manager. He should have done something with the Mariners. His best year was probably his REds WS team, but as #48 notes, he screwed O'Neil up.
July 22nd, 2010 at 10:07 am
If anyone deserves to be inducted because of the sum of his performances as a player and manager, it is Gil Hodges. Torre will make it as a manager. Piniella? Not so sure. For some reason, it takes a lot (longevity, mostly) for a manager to get elected. Other than Torre, the only current managers with guaranteed tickets to Cooperstown are Bobby Cox and Tony LaRussa. I think Jim Leyland, Charlie Manuel, and Cito Gaston are great managers but not HOF Material. Three men on the right track - Bruce Bochy, Terry Francona, and Mike Scioscia. Hey, here's another category - performance as player, coach, manager, and organizational adviser: Don Zimmer. Anyone want to start a Zim For The Hall thread?
July 22nd, 2010 at 11:47 am
Well, Zimmer was a terrible player. As a manager he's mostly known for blowing a big lead in '78. There are no coaches in the HOF. And somehow I doubt he's really contributing that much these days as an "organization adviser."
So, no.
July 22nd, 2010 at 11:49 am
Zim should get in by virtue of being so aerodynamic when Pedro, you know, tossed him like a rag doll.
July 22nd, 2010 at 1:11 pm
Coach for the HOF: Walt Hriniak.
July 22nd, 2010 at 9:09 pm
I liked Pinella as a plyaer and a manager but not enought to put him in the Hall... Torre was a Gold Glove catcher but he switched positions so he comes up a little short,,, Simmons should be in.. Maurtagh should be in ... Houk, who just passed away, was an excelent manager who won with the Yanks and helped develop talent that resulted in pennant winners in Detroit and Boston... if he had managed Boston in 86, my Mets may not have won....
July 22nd, 2010 at 9:11 pm
Coach for the Hall: Johnny Sain... 20 game winners everywhere he went......