Post-Season Finale Poundings
Posted by Steve Lombardi on October 16, 2011
The Tigers, last night, were not the first team to have their post-season run shut-down with an ugly loss. Here are some other teams to have this happen to them.
It's an unofficial list -
| Date | Series | Gm# | Tm | Opp | Rslt |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2009-10-21 | NLCS | 5 | LAD | PHI | L 4-10 |
| 2007-10-21 | ALCS | 7 | CLE | BOS | L 2-11 |
| 2007-10-07 | ALDS | 3 | LAA | BOS | L 1-9 |
| 2004-10-20 | ALCS | 7 | NYY | BOS | L 3-10 |
| 2004-10-11 | NLDS | 5 | ATL | HOU | L 3-12 |
| 2002-10-13 | ALCS | 5 | MIN | ANA | L 5-13 |
| 2001-10-22 | ALCS | 5 | SEA | NYY | L 3-12 |
| 1996-10-17 | NLCS | 7 | STL | ATL | L 0-15 |
| 1995-10-07 | NLDS | 4 | COL | ATL | L 4-10 |
| 1995-10-06 | NLDS | 3 | LAD | CIN | L 1-10 |
| 1992-10-14 | ALCS | 6 | OAK | TOR | L 2-9 |
| 1985-10-27 | WS | 7 | STL | KCR | L 0-11 |
| 1981-10-28 | WS | 6 | NYY | LAD | L 2-9 |
| 1974-10-09 | NLCS | 4 | PIT | LAD | L 1-12 |
| 1970-10-15 | WS | 5 | CIN | BAL | L 3-9 |
| 1969-10-06 | ALCS | 3 | MIN | BAL | L 2-11 |
| 1961-10-09 | WS | 5 | CIN | NYY | L 5-13 |
| 1959-10-08 | WS | 6 | CHW | LAD | L 3-9 |
| 1956-10-10 | WS | 7 | BRO | NYY | L 0-9 |
| 1945-10-10 | WS | 7 | CHC | DET | L 3-9 |
| 1936-10-06 | WS | 6 | NYG | NYY | L 5-13 |
| 1934-10-09 | WS | 7 | DET | STL | L 0-11 |
| 1932-10-02 | WS | 4 | CHC | NYY | L 6-13 |
| 1919-10-09 | WS | 8 | CHW | CIN | L 5-10 |
| 1911-10-26 | WS | 6 | NYG | PHA | L 2-13 |
.
As a baseball fan of a particular team, any of these sting the most for you?
October 16th, 2011 at 9:45 am
The 1996 Cardinals/Braves finale, because Ozzie Smith was my favorite childhood player and I knew it was his last season.
October 16th, 2011 at 10:04 am
What about game 7 of the 1986 ALCS? The Red Sox pounded the Angels, I believe, 10-0. That is without looking it up, so I may have the score wrong.
October 16th, 2011 at 10:11 am
The White Sox took a dive in that 1919 game.
October 16th, 2011 at 10:13 am
The night before that 2001 game, Lou Piniella announced matter of factly that the playoff series "would return to Seattle." Then the Yankees proceeded to pound the 116-game-winners into so much clay.
October 16th, 2011 at 10:17 am
The Fireside Book of Baseball had an excellent report of that 1956 game and its emotional toll on Don Newcombe, who had been getting a reputation as a pitcher who "could not win the big one."
October 16th, 2011 at 10:19 am
@2 - Boston won game 7 by an 8-1 score.
October 16th, 2011 at 10:21 am
In that 1985 game, many of the Cardinals claimed that the home plate umpire (Don Denkinger) had a biased strike zone. This was the night after Denkinger (it is generally conceded) blew a call that led to a winning rally by the Royals. I'm not a Cards fan but I know one or two--neither has "forgiven" this now-retired ump.
October 16th, 2011 at 10:22 am
I'd rather have my team lose 11-0 than in the manner the A's are acustomed to going out- Durham lines out with tying and winning runs on, Mellhuse and Long watch identical sliders for called strike three's with bases loaded...
Out of the games on the list the one I remember is the Cards going out to the Royals in 85- certainly one of the most exciting 11-0 games ever with Herzog and Andujar blowing up and terrible players such as Sheridan and Motley playing huge roles.
October 16th, 2011 at 10:44 am
As a Tigers' fan, the one that stings me the most is the any one featuring Brad Penny pitching when a game was still in reach.
October 16th, 2011 at 11:00 am
Cleveland's 2007 loss was third in a row after building 3 games to 1 series lead. Combined score of 3 losses was 30-5.
October 16th, 2011 at 12:03 pm
@10
Only 30-5? Check out the 1996 NLCS. After building a 3-1 lead, the Cards went out and got outscored by the Braves 32-1 in the last three games. Game 7 was practically over by the time Donovan Osborne gave up 6 first inning runs....
October 16th, 2011 at 12:59 pm
Why are 9-3 and 10-4 scores on the list, but not 6-0? That was the score of the Dodgers win over the Mets in Game 7 of the 1988 NLCS, and it was just as ugly as any of the games on the list.
October 16th, 2011 at 1:22 pm
@7
Denkinger's call is one of those polarizing "you remember where you were when" moments. It ranks up there with Jim Joyce's call a few years ago...though I rank Joyce's call down for two big reasons:
1. the call had no impact on the game
2. the call was during the regular season
3. the call was for an individual achievement, rather than a team achievement
4. Joyce immediately admitted he had made a mistake.
The better comparison would be to Bartman's catch during the 2003 playoff's, primarily due to the effect on the team. Both the Cardinals in 1985 and the Cubs in 2003 literally self-destructed. Jack Clark drops a routine foul ball. Passed Ball. Todd Worrell is less than his magnificent self. And then game 7, everything simply goes to pot. I have no opinion one way or the other about the strike zone. You make adjustments for a strikezone as a hitter. The call in game six was inexcusable, but the self-destruction to finish game six and all of game seven is purely at the feet of the Cards.
I do however say that the 1985 World Series was not won by the Royals. It was lost by the Cardinals, with an assist at first base.
October 16th, 2011 at 1:30 pm
@11: Wow! Did not remember that one. Both since online casino sports betting started catching on around 1995.
October 16th, 2011 at 1:45 pm
The '61 Yankees-Redlegs matchup was really galling to me. We went into the Series figuring that the Yanks were greatly enhanced during the season by the fact that there were two new {and pretty weak} teams; and we had a pretty fair bunch in Robinson, Pinson, et al. The realityu that M and M were really that good irritated the living crap out of me.
October 16th, 2011 at 1:47 pm
We really believed the headline in the Cincinnati Enquirer that year:
REDS WIN THE PENNANT! YANKS GO HOME!
October 16th, 2011 at 2:30 pm
1985 Game 7 was a great night for this Royal fan. And to think, they haven't been back to the playoffs since!
October 16th, 2011 at 2:48 pm
How come the Rangers game is not in this list?
http://www.baseball-reference.com/play-index/game_finder.cgi?type=b&class=team#ajax_result_table::none
October 16th, 2011 at 3:08 pm
@16
I just looked at the box scores for the 1961 World Series.
It doesn't look like Maris or Mantle had anything at all to do with the Yankees winning. They both did close to nothing, according to the box score.
October 16th, 2011 at 3:13 pm
9 runs by Texas in the 3rd inning last night made this game especially
horrible for Detroit fans.
I know there is always a chance, but by that point being 9-2 it was over.
Worse yet is with Detroit having that early 2-0 lead, it gave their fans
hope. Only to be dashed shortly.
October 16th, 2011 at 4:04 pm
Jimbo,
Maybe in Game 5, they let teammates -- I seem to recall either Boyer or Berra that game, but then it was half a century ago -- do some of the damage; but Mantle and Maris did plenty overall in the Series.
Not that the 1961 Series turned me against the Yankees; that happened bain '39, when the Yankees rolled over Cincy in a four-game sweep -- my first real memory as a Redlegs fan {I had just turned twelve}.
October 16th, 2011 at 4:14 pm
@7 Amen!
October 16th, 2011 at 4:18 pm
@1 and @7 ... several thoughts.
First, on 1 ... was Ozzie throwing out a postseason game's ceremonial first pitch the first time he's done that since retiring and his infamous feud w/Tony the Pony?
On 7 .. the call of course was clearly blown. That said, as a Cards fan? Tudor was pitching third start in the series, and lost speed differentiation on his fastball vs. change. That didn't help, no matter the strike zone size. And, TLR would have yanked him faster than Whitey, and NOT replaced him w/Andujar at any point!
More seriously, the Cards had other chances to close out Game 6. And the "0" of Game 7? Their bats went to sleep the last 2/3 of the series. Don't forget the Cards were missing Vince Coleman due to the infamous tarp.
October 16th, 2011 at 5:00 pm
I knew. I knew you would include the 1985 World Series,
which Denkinger was the home referee.
However, I have to criticize the foolishness of the Cardinals players, one of them broke the urinal after denkinger ejected him.
Instead of following denkinger's orders, he could haved ejected Denkinger from this world for ever, with the fist which broke the urinal landing instead to Denkinger's skull or back of the head.
Umpires can throw the games to any way they feel like, and Denkinger got away with it. That taught lessons to other umpires, who began to behave whatever they feel like at any given moment for a ruling.
If there is another Denkinger, his skull has to break at the ground. The player who does that might be vilified at first, but he will reach the baseball pantheon as the one who stood up to the evil umpires.
(No umpire worshippers need to reply)
October 16th, 2011 at 5:47 pm
1996 NLCS. I was born in 82, so I wasn't old enough to watch the 82, 85 or 87 teams. This was the first team I cared about that made it to the postseason. Up 3-1, the Cardinals lost the next three by a total score of 32-1. I still remember Donovon Osborne on the verge of breaking into tears on the bench after he was removed in the 1st inning of game 7.
I've hated the Braves ever since. It was like some bigger bully letting you *almost* win at arm wrestling only to destroy you when you think you have him beat just to double your humiliation.
October 16th, 2011 at 5:52 pm
Cabriael-
No "umpire worshipper" here, but I'm pretty appalled that you think Denkinger or any other umpire deserves to die. You're sick.
October 16th, 2011 at 6:09 pm
No "umpire worshipper" here either; but we have tolerated Obama as our president for the last three years, so why can't we forgive -- in fact, grudgingly accept -- Denkinger and his calls? Trust me; there have been worse "men in blue".
October 16th, 2011 at 6:17 pm
Those 2007 Red Sox did a number to the Indians similar to what the 1996 Braves did to the Cardinals.
Red Sox were down 3-1 in the series and won the last 3 games of the ALCS by a combined 30-5 score, winning each of those game by 6+ runs. They carried on that streak with a 13-1 pasting of the Rockies to start the World Series. According to PI, that 4-game streak of 6+ run victories is the longest in the post-season.
October 16th, 2011 at 6:35 pm
What is wrong with Obama? He is only trying to fix what was broken by Bush in his 8 years in office. Why is it always the 2nd man always has to take blame for something he didn't start! So if you hadn't elected Bush, not for not just one term, but two, then there probably wouldn't be an Obama #27.
October 16th, 2011 at 7:45 pm
That 2009 NLCS loss the Dodgers had to the Phillies was not nearly as bad as the previous two. The game three loss was 10-0, and the game four loss was on a two-run walk-off double to make it 5-4.
October 16th, 2011 at 7:50 pm
Malachai;
My Point was not a slam on Obama; my point {perhaps poorly presented} was that the attitude that prompted the "kill Denkinger" comment is the same type that set off Hinkley to shoot Reagan, and could actually set someone off to take a shot at Denkinger! I was deploring the suggested use of violence, rather than making a political statement.
If that comment was taken that way, I apologise profusely.
October 16th, 2011 at 8:23 pm
Conversely, how many teams have suffered a 1-0 loss in the finale? Unfortunately, I know one from this year.
October 16th, 2011 at 8:23 pm
And, speaking of calls ... Pujols was SAFE! Could be 5-0 and Cards still batting ... but, hopefully we'll make that four-spot stand up.
October 16th, 2011 at 8:45 pm
Yeesh-can we all agree to keep the political metaphors out of it? I want to talk about baseball. Plenty of politics everywhere else...
October 16th, 2011 at 8:51 pm
@19
In the 1961 WS Mantle was hurt, had only 6 AB. Reserve OF Hector Lopez caused the most damage.
October 16th, 2011 at 9:23 pm
All I know about '61 was that it strengthened my status as a Yankee-hater, that began some years before when the Yanks swept the Redlegs in four {I think it was 1939, but I could be mistaken}.
But now that you mention it, I think I do recall Lopez being in for Mantle in the '61 Series...and wearing us out.
October 16th, 2011 at 9:30 pm
@26 BSK: You must be new to the Cabriael experience. He constantly posts comments that make it clear that he's several pliers short of a toolkit - a real wacko nutjob...
October 16th, 2011 at 9:31 pm
Mantle had a variety of nagging injuries down the stretch in the 1961 regular season, part of why he couldn't surpass Ruth's 60 himself.
October 16th, 2011 at 9:32 pm
Meanwhile, I'm still awaiting Steve's explanation for excluding games like game 7 for the 1988 NLCS.
October 16th, 2011 at 10:47 pm
Well, Stu, look at the scores of the games that Steve has listed. It appears that the losing team allowed at least nine runs and lost by at least six. The 1988 Mets allowed too few runs in Game 7 of the NLCS.
I attended that game, rooting for the Dodgers. Great game. (-;þ
October 16th, 2011 at 11:50 pm
YESSSSSSSSSS!
October 16th, 2011 at 11:56 pm
And, by the criteria ... this game gets added to the list?
October 17th, 2011 at 12:21 am
26, 27 - Capital crimes deserve capital punishments.
I never forgive.
37 - It's the umpire worshippers who still refuse to advance past the 19th century.
October 17th, 2011 at 2:57 am
Cabriael, I do not think you are trolling. I ask you respectfully to consider two things.
If someone did kill or brain-mangle an umpire, it would only cause severe punishment & contempt for him. All the attention would go to that, nobody would think other guys would do the same, & it would not effect officiating.
Living w/such toxic hate cannot be healthy or comfortable. Just think about challenging your hate & revenge paradigm. For your own sake bro.
October 17th, 2011 at 3:17 am
The only pitcher ever to pitch for only the Cardinals and Rangers: Don Durham.
Not much of a pitcher, but look at the career OPS!
October 17th, 2011 at 4:26 am
@45 KahunaTuna: Bobby Witt!!
I didn't even need to search for it.....wow....did I just assist the Kahuna?!?!!
Made my week ;-D
October 17th, 2011 at 9:20 am
Guys, remember, the '85 Cardinals were missing Vince Coleman from the WS roster, and batted a total of .178 in the 7-game series. That just won't get it done.
October 17th, 2011 at 9:23 am
I don't know the 1985 Cardinals lost it so much as they got beat:
Royals hit .288/.366/.381 for the Series.
The Cardinals hit .185/.248/.269.
It was one of the most one-sided Series ever. Throw out a couple fluke losses and it never even makes it to Game 7.
October 17th, 2011 at 9:26 am
Why did Rzepczynski get the win last night? Salas was the first pitcher to come in after the starter failed to go 5 innings, and Salas pitched 2 innings giving up one run.
October 17th, 2011 at 10:31 am
Thanks for the assist, Nash! There are plenty of pitchers who have pitched for both the Cardinals and the Rangers, but Durham is the only one who pitched for those two teams only. I checked using the Multi-Franchise tool, so I feel pretty confident singling out Durham and his 2-11 career W-L record.
October 17th, 2011 at 10:35 am
Kahuna, did your search include the 1961-71 Washington Senators?
October 17th, 2011 at 10:39 am
@49 Mags, Rzep got one more out and gave up one less hit and one less walk (they both had 1 ER). He also had a better WPA and RE24, although I suspect that had nothing to do with the ruling 🙂
October 17th, 2011 at 10:42 am
@44 Mike Felber: You shouldn't take Cabriael seriously. He is trolling, and he's a wacko.
@46 Nash Bruce: How is Bobby Witt relevant?
@47 Barry: Coleman was a good base-stealer and a despicable person (remember the bleach-throwing incident?). He wasn't that much of a game changer. I'm fairly certain the Cardinals would've lost anyway had he not been hurt.
October 17th, 2011 at 11:19 am
Todd Zeile!
October 17th, 2011 at 11:21 am
@Stu B.: True, but he was better than what they threw out there.
October 17th, 2011 at 11:25 am
Thanks, Stu B. I didn't realize.
October 17th, 2011 at 12:25 pm
55- Vince Coleman's replacement was Tito Landrum, who led the team in hitting (.360- the next best was Willie McGee at .259) and hit one of their two home runs. Had the Cards won the series John Tudor would have probably won the MVP but Landrum was in the conversation at the time, so it's doubtful that Coleman could have done better.
October 17th, 2011 at 12:46 pm
@Pauly: Good point. You wonder, though, whether Whitey's attitude hurt them as well. With the whole we-wuz-robbed mentality, it's possible that the team just quit.
Also, I like the point that after the Denkinger blown call, Jack Clark couldn't handle the pop up. Reminds me of the Bartman game. If you recall, Alex Gonzalez couldn't handle a routine grounder that would likely have been a double play. Similarly, the Buckner play was after the Red Sox blew their lead. With the game tied at Shea, the Mets had a way better chance of winning anyway.
October 17th, 2011 at 12:56 pm
58) Reminds me of the 1977 NLCS Dodgers - Phillies game 3 when Luzinski dropped a fly ball at the fence and Schmidt deflected a smash to Bowa who got the base-runner by a hair....who was called "safe". Shit happens
And I guess we can add the Brewers defeat to this list of final game blow-outs.
October 17th, 2011 at 1:15 pm
Speaking of the Cardinals, you should add the Brewers game to that list.
October 17th, 2011 at 1:25 pm
Stu @51: Yes, I did include the 61-71 Senators in my search. No pitcher — in fact, no player — played for only the Cardinals and the "new" Washington Senators.
October 17th, 2011 at 2:26 pm
@24/Cabriael - with all your talk of "kill the ump!" you are either:
- yanking our chain here in a serious way
- advocating the pre-meditated murder of any umpire you believe makes deliberately wrong calls
I hope it's the first one, because if you really believe the second one, you are one sick so-and-so.
@43 would seem to indicate that it is the second one, in which case I would gladly send you back in a time machine to the 1890s, when the players and fans did _indeed_ try to do serious harm to the umpire (it's a wonder none were killed on the field in that era)
In either case if that is all you have to add - PLEASE GO AWAY - this blog is for serious baseball fans having (usually) serious baseball discussions. You are adding nothing.
@58 Barry
"... Also, I like the point that after the Denkinger blown call, Jack Clark couldn't handle the pop up. Reminds me of the Bartman game. If you recall, Alex Gonzalez couldn't handle a routine grounder that would likely have been a double play. Similarly, the Buckner play was after the Red Sox blew their lead...."
Good points; I'd also point out that after these three famous blown calls/ bad plays that THERE WAS AN ENTIRE SEVENTH GAME for these losing teams to come back and win the series. Casual fans, who are only familiar with those particular infamous events, might think that those particular events led immediately to those teams losing those series.
Not so - there was a whole lot of baseball played after these events, there was nothing "pre-ordained"about these three teams losing these series.
October 17th, 2011 at 2:56 pm
@62 Lawrence Azrin:
Agreed about the seventh game, although the casual fan would say that the incident (or blown call) took away the momentum from the team that had been winning.
But for every team that that's happened to, you have examples of teams that had a bad call go against them but then went on to recover and win the series.
(Add to the list the ALCS game with the catcher's interference call. The Angels were never the same after that.)
October 17th, 2011 at 3:19 pm
@63/ Barry " @62 Lawrence Azrin:
Agreed about the seventh game, although the casual fan would say that the incident (or blown call) took away the momentum from the team that had been winning..."
Barry, thanks, although I would say the whole "momentum" argument in sports is overrated, especially in baseball;
"momentum is only as good as today's starting pitcher"
would seem to apply here.
October 17th, 2011 at 5:36 pm
The complete trade history of the Cardinals and Senators/Rangers:
April 2, 1963: The Washington Senators purchased Minnie Miñoso from the St. Louis Cardinals.
November 3, 1971: The Texas Rangers traded Joe Grzenda to the Cardinals for Ted Kubiak.
February 1, 1973: The Cardinals traded a PTBNL and Charlie Hudson to the Rangers for a PTBNL. To complete the trade, on March 31, 1973, the Rangers sent Mike Thompson to the Cardinals and the Cardinals sent Mike Nagy to the Rangers.
June 6, 1973: The Cardinals traded Jim Bibby to the Rangers for Mike Nagy and John Wockenfuss.
July 16, 1973: The Cardinals traded Don Durham to the Rangers for Jim Kremmel.
October 26, 1973: The Cardinals traded Tommy Cruz and cash to the Rangers for Sonny Siebert.
August 12, 1974: The Cardinals purchased Dick Billings from the Rangers.
June 4, 1975: The Cardinals traded Ed Brinkman and Tommy Moore to the Rangers for Willie Davis.
October 22, 1976: The Cardinals traded Mike Wallace to the Rangers for John Sutton.
February 12, 1979: The Cardinals traded Tommy Toms to the Rangers for Keith Smith.
July 22, 1993: The Rangers traded Todd Burns to the Cardinals for a PTBNL. The Cardinals sent Duff Brumley (July 30, 1993) to the Rangers to complete the trade.
December 16, 1996: The Rangers traded David Chavarría (minors) to the Cardinals for Cory Bailey.
July 31, 1998: The Rangers traded a PTBNL, Darren Oliver and Fernando Tatís to the Cardinals for Royce Clayton and Todd Stottlemyre. The Rangers sent Mark Little (August 9, 1998) to the Cardinals to complete the trade.
May 27, 2003: The Rangers traded Esteban Yan to the Cardinals for Rick Asadoorian (minors).
October 17th, 2011 at 6:29 pm
@50 Kahuna: Oops. "only' LOL
Things look so much better when you just see what you want.....
October 17th, 2011 at 8:31 pm
Not directly, but the Cardinals traded Curt Flood to the Phillies in a deal that also included Dick Allen going from Philadelphia to St. Louis. Then, when Flood refused to report to the Phillies, the Phillies dealt him to the Senators. At that point, Flood retired and began his challenge of the baseball reserve system.
I thought that Scipio Spinks was part of the 1973 Jim Bibby deal, but it's been awhile. After the Senators left town, I rooted so hard against the Rangers that I followed their moves just to boo them. Of course, after Bibby pitched the first franchise no-hitter not long after that, I was really sorry that they got him! (No one pitching for a Washington major league team has thrown a no-hitter since August 1931 - 80 years now. The Nationals' home opener pitcher in their first year, 2005, took a no-hitter deep into the game.)
October 17th, 2011 at 11:01 pm
@67 DoubleDiamond: And the haul for the Phillies in that Flood deal included the immortal Greg Goossen! It should be noted that Flood actually played 13 games for the Senators before hangin 'em up.
October 17th, 2011 at 11:39 pm
@62 - actually, killing the umpire may not be necessary. Just pluck one eye so he will never call another game for the rest of his life is sufficient.
There is no legal way to punish an umpire with malice, like Denkinger or Meals. And managers tend to try to kiss their behind.
So the only way to punish them is strike them directly.
Some people think umpires are infalliable and divine so they should not be punished for their bad calls. I call them umpire worshippers, since they respect the bunch of half-blind men as gods. I would rather worship the pasta gods.
When enough of them go down, umpiring will not be cool any more, and it will give way to more technically sophiscated way of officiating.
October 18th, 2011 at 12:28 am
Cabriael, is Delmon Young your favorite player?
October 18th, 2011 at 1:14 am
On the 87 Cards, the other thing, as noted by me earlier, was it was Tudor's third game. That's why he lost the speed "differentiation" on his "fastball," such as it was, versus his change, and became hittable. If Whitey had been Tony the Pony, Tudor would have been on a lot quicker hook. But, yeah, the way the Cards had been batting, Saberhagen just needed a run or two.
October 18th, 2011 at 2:14 am
You asserted a premise absent evidence Stu. If Cabriael is serious, even if he is partially commenting for an outraged reaction, which you do not know, he is be definition not trolling. And if he is so mentally unwell to be sincere, this is likely. It is not helpful to call him a whacko, though the non-contemptuous part of it denoting the personal problem seems accurate.
Here is wishing you some peace Cab,
October 18th, 2011 at 11:39 am
Well, Cabriel - God bless you for having a dream.
Occupy Home Plate!!!