74 Responses to “Lance Berkman & Jacoby Ellsbury are comeback players of the year”

1. AustynKC Says:
   October 13th, 2011 at 12:02 pm

   Being a Royal homer, I was hoping Alex Gordon would win this award. But, life goes on, I definitely agree with the Lance Berkman pick.

2. Hartvig Says:
   October 13th, 2011 at 12:06 pm

   If I had to guess, I would say Alex Gordon finished runner up in the AL.

3. Ed Says:
   October 13th, 2011 at 12:20 pm

   MLB should get rid of this award. It's meaningless. What exactly did Ellsbury "comeback" from? If there were a most improved award, I'd understand Ellsbury winning that but comeback makes no sense.

4. Dan Says:
   October 13th, 2011 at 12:23 pm

   How could Alex Gordon be the Comeback Player of the Year when this was his first decent season?

5. Andy Says:
   October 13th, 2011 at 12:24 pm

   Ed, I somewhat agree. In all the major professional sports, the comeback award has seemed to veer towards a guy coming back from injury. I agree that Ellsbury didn't really come back, performance-wise. This year was better than any year he'd ever had previously, injured or not. Berkman is a better choice, I think, in terms of what the award really means.

6. Andy Says:
   October 13th, 2011 at 12:28 pm

   If I recall correctly, Lonnie Smith won the award in 1989, and that makes a lot of sense. For the first 6 years he appeared in the majors (through 1983) he had an OPS+ of 128. Then from 1984 to 1988, he had an OPS+ of 96 and lost big chunks of two seasons to injury. Then in 1989, he came back with a full season and a 168 OPS+.

   It's not the injury part that makes him a good winner--it's the sustained good performance, followed by one or more years of significantly reduced performance, followed by a year that was as good as any of his previous years.

7. Lawrence Azrin Says:
   October 13th, 2011 at 12:31 pm

   @1/ AustynKC - "Being a Royal homer, I was hoping Alex Gordon would win this award..."

   AustynKC, with all due respect, not only did Ellsbury have a better year than Gordon, he needed to "comeback" from a worse year:
   - Gordon in 2110: 74 G, 84 OPS+
   - Ellsbury in 2010: 18 G, 19 OPS+ (thanks Adrain Beltre)

8. Lawrence Azrin Says:
   October 13th, 2011 at 12:50 pm

   @3 - @6; - FWIW, here is the official definition of the Comeback Player of the Year:

   The Major League Baseball Comeback Player of the Year Award is presented by Major League Baseball (MLB) to the player who is judged to have "re-emerged on the baseball field during a given season."

   Here's my interpretation of what the Comeback Player of the Year is:

   an established player that:
   - was a decent regular for at least a couple years
   - missed a lot of games AND his performance was considerably worse the previous year of the award
   - played (nearly a) full season and his performance was at least as good as before the previous "drop-off" year

   I can see why they defined it so abstractly...

9. Ed Says:
   October 13th, 2011 at 12:58 pm

   @8 Lawrence Azrin I generally agree with your criteria. The only quibble would be that I don't think a player needs to miss time the prior year in order to have a comeback season.

10. jr Says:
    October 13th, 2011 at 1:09 pm

    Someone has to tell me how Ryan Vogelson does not win this award. The guy was out of the league for 5 years and was an All-Star this year. Berkman had a great year, but a guy who is out of the league for 5 years and performs at a high level deserved it more.

11. Dominguin Says:
    October 13th, 2011 at 1:11 pm

    ellsbury is a hell of a player.

    Can you imagine if the Yankees had signed Berkman in 2010 and he had been the DH or alternated with Swiisher in the field and at DH???

    But they were boxed in by Posada s contract.....abd they went cheap on the bench. They DID have a good bench, cheap but good

    I m happy that Berkman had a good year. Right now. Hh is very good but not HOF career terriitory, it wil be interesting to see how much more he has.....

12. Johnny Twisto Says:
    October 13th, 2011 at 1:13 pm

    Good point Jr, Vogelson did have a very nice season. I guess it's the vagueness of the coming *back* part. Vogelson was never any good in the past; he was actually pretty terrible. So while he came back to MLB, he didn't come back to competency; this was the first season he was ever worth a damn.

13. Dominguin Says:
    October 13th, 2011 at 1:27 pm

    what Vogelsong represents is the power of a dream, and the perssience in following it. he s piched all over the American minors and in Japan....and he never gave up his dream...

    That s worth more then a damn.....

    Journeymen pitchers who step up and fill a spot in a rotation and succeed are part of baseball lore. .

14. Lawrence Azrin Says:
    October 13th, 2011 at 1:28 pm

    @9/Ed -

    Looking at the winners of this award since it went "official" in 2005, all of the winners missed at least half the previous season (the highest "games played" I found was Griffey Jr. in 2004, 83 G), often missing nearly the entire year. So an important criterion for the award does seem to be lots of games missed the previous year.

    Can you think of an established regular who played a full but lousy year, then had a great year after his lousy year? Norm Cash won two "The Sporting News Comeback Player of the Year" awards (1965, 1971), but both times his games totals are about the same for the year of the award and the year before it, is this what you mean?

    Actually, looking at his 1964/1965 numbers, I don't really understand WHY he got the award in 1965, mebbe they were figuring out what the award meant.

15. AustynKC Says:
    October 13th, 2011 at 1:33 pm

    @Lawrence Azrin, Oh I wasn't saying that Gordon had a better year then Ellsbury because I would have been talking out of my butt. But being the homer, which I mentioned, I just wanted Gordon to win it, he moved to LF had a great defensive year and offensive year after 3 pretty mediocre (At the very best) years. But yea, it is hard to argue that Ellsbury being 30/30 after a injury plague year not winning it. I really think this should be only award if there is someone who deserves it, not a award that is given every year.

16. Dominguin Says:
    October 13th, 2011 at 1:37 pm

    re14
    Probably the award was not givena t that time, but two HOF catchers fall into that caregory...Campanella and Bench.

17. Mike Says:
    October 13th, 2011 at 1:46 pm

    Anyone for Bartolo Colon? Last full, productive year was 2005 (Cy Young). Was injured for years, out of MLB for all of 2010, then had a pretty good 2011 (very good until a late-season tail-off).

    Ellsbury clearly had a fantastic seaon, a breakout, but he really didn't have any great level to come back to.

18. Lawrence Azrin Says:
    October 13th, 2011 at 1:51 pm

    @14/ Maybe a better example of what Ed meant - Allan Trammel won TSN Comeback Player in 1983:

    1982 : .258, 8 HR, 57 RBI, 97 OPS+, 4.1 WAR
    1983: .308,14 HR, 66 RBI, 138 OPS+, 5.7 WAR {15th in MVP, 8th in WAR/all players, GG}

    It doesn't seem like he had what I'd call a "lousy" year in 1982, but just an average, respectable year. But - he had already gotten MVP votes in 1980 and 1981, but not 1982, so maybe the perception was that he was just returning to his established level in 1983.

19. Lawrence Azrin Says:
    October 13th, 2011 at 2:08 pm

    @15/ AustynKC -
    "@Lawrence Azrin, Oh I wasn't saying that Gordon had a better year then Ellsbury..."

    AustynKC - being a homer is always a good justification, Gordon would've been the obvious choice after Ellsbury.

    @16/ Dominguin - Bench did play his whole career since when The Sporting News "Comeback Player of the Year" started (1965). I can see him winning in 1971 and 1976, but even his "off years" were pretty good, considering he was a catcher.

    @17/ Mike - I could see Colon winning it in a year where there weren't any obvious candidates like Gordon and Ellsbury, all this really proves is that _no one_ really knows precisely what the "Comeback Player of the Year" award means...

20. Brian Says:
    October 13th, 2011 at 2:31 pm

    How did I never notice until today that Lance Berkman posted a career high OPS+ this season? Great year for that man.

21. 704_Brave Says:
    October 13th, 2011 at 2:42 pm

    Here's hoping Jason Heyward wins the NL award next season.

22. Richard Chester Says:
    October 13th, 2011 at 2:49 pm

    @14

    "Can you think of an established regular who played a full but lousy year, then had a great year after his lousy year?"

    I am really going back in time for this one. In 1946, after a decent career with the Browns, 1B George McQuinn played for the A's and had an awful year. He hit .225 with 3 HRs and 35 RBIs, with an OPS+ of 79. He then played a key role for the pennant-winning Yankees in 1947, hitting .304 with 13 HRs, 80 RBIs and an OPS+ of 132. He finished 6th in the MVP voting. Bear in mind that 1947 was not a big year for hitters.

    Of course there was no Comeback Award at that time.

23. shaqfearsyao Says:
    October 13th, 2011 at 3:03 pm

    So I guess this means Ellsbury won't win mvp?

    How many players have won comeback player of the year and mvp in the same season?

24. AustynKC Says:
    October 13th, 2011 at 3:11 pm

    @Lawrence Azrin, yes!

25. Larry R. Says:
    October 13th, 2011 at 3:19 pm

    @14, 22

    Mark McGwire (pre-juice)...1991 and 1992.

26. Howard Says:
    October 13th, 2011 at 3:25 pm

    @17 Colon and Freddy Garcia likely split the vote. I'd like to know who the Yankees' and Red Sox' MLB writer voted for.

27. Lawrence Azrin Says:
    October 13th, 2011 at 3:33 pm

    @23/ shaqfearsyao -
    "... How many players have won comeback player of the year and MVP in the same season?"

    shaqfearsyao - None since it started in 1965, although Cliff Lee was the Comeback and CYA winner in 2008. I guess you can be "real good" but not "too great" to be Comeback Player.

    This gets back to what I said in #19, that _no one_ really knows precisely what the "Comeback Player of the Year" award means...

28. John Autin Says:
    October 13th, 2011 at 3:40 pm

    It would have been cool to vote Chipper Jones both Rookie of the Year and Comeback Player of the Year in 1995. 🙂

29. John Autin Says:
    October 13th, 2011 at 3:51 pm

    I found the top 100 in career OPS+ since 1893 (min. 3,000 PAs), then did a filtered search for the worst qualifying seasons among that group.

    -- There were only 12 qualifying seasons of OPS+ below 100, done by 9 different players.

    -- Only 4 of those 12 seasons had OPS+ below 90.

    -- Only 2 of the top 100 had a qualifying season OPS+ below 100 in between qualifying seasons with OPS+ above 100.

    Anybody want to guess those 2 players?

30. jason Says:
    October 13th, 2011 at 4:02 pm

    gordon might have won had the royals stayed at circa .500 for the year like they were early on.

31. howard rosen Says:
    October 13th, 2011 at 4:27 pm

    @14...Cash's award in 1965 was due to a matter of perception. In 1964 he was still considered by many to be an elite player rather than merely the very good player he was for most of his career. He got off to such an awful start that year that despite posting decent overall numbers because of a great August/September the impression was that he had a bad year. In reality his "comeback" began in late '64 and continued the following season.

32. Paul E Says:
    October 13th, 2011 at 4:46 pm

    can somebody who wins this award at least be coming back from a significant injury ?

    Berkman had 480 some PA's in 2010. Beltran would make more sense in light of his knee injury....

    Ellsbury makes sense

33. Lawrence Azrin Says:
    October 13th, 2011 at 4:47 pm

    @31/ Howard Rosen -
    OK, thanks - I was too young to follow baseball then. It just doesn't seem like there was a big difference between the "before" and "after" of Cash's 1964 and 1965.

    @29 - I assume by "qualifying" you mean qualifying for the batting title (3.1 PA/ scheduled game)? I thought of several players having drop-offs in the middle of their careers (Hafner, Giambi), but they missed a lot of games in the down years.

34. Johnny Twisto Says:
    October 13th, 2011 at 4:48 pm

    And with 32 posts, we have now set the record for most discussion in history about the Comeback POY awards. Congratulations Brefren!

35. Paul E Says:
    October 13th, 2011 at 4:48 pm

    @20 Brian:

    Berkman's career OPS+ of 146 is SECOND all-time among switch hitters !!

36. Mike Gaber Says:
    October 13th, 2011 at 4:58 pm

    I guess if Adam Dunn can hit over the "Mendoza Line" next year he would be a good candidate for Come Back Player of the year in the AL in 2012.

37. Lawrence Azrin Says:
    October 13th, 2011 at 5:10 pm

    @29/ John A. -
    Mike Tiernan, 1894 (89 OPS+) - it is after 1893, even if his whole career isn't
    Todd Helton, 2010 (87 OPS+)

38. Dominguin Says:
    October 13th, 2011 at 5:20 pm

    @19 Lawrence
    I think you mean that Bench won in 1972 and 1977, 71 and 76 were BAD years even if he was a catcher, but still among the one or two best catchers in history

    Although the award wasnt given, check out the difference between Campanella s 54 and 55 seasons...and the difference between the 1925 and 1926 seasons of Babe Ruth!

    Berkman I can see.......althoiugh he had 480 PAS in 2010 his number were far down and with the Cardinals in 2011 he jacked 31, 90 plus RBIS and hit 301. Pujols had a difficult season..........great for just about anyone else....but difficult for Pujols and Berkman was very important to the Cards during the first half of the season

    Ellsbury didn t come back from an off season, he was injured in 2010. He had a breakout season or took his game to another level. IMHO I haven t seen this combination of hiitng for power, base steallng, and hitting for average since maybe Joe Morgan.

    Since the Red Sox folded and the MVP will probalby go to someone else, maybe it was felt that Ellsbury deserved something for his 2011 season.

39. SABRSteve Says:
    October 13th, 2011 at 5:37 pm

    If injury is a factor then Buster Posey is a prime candidate for the 2012 NL award, no?

40. Lawrence Azrin Says:
    October 13th, 2011 at 5:43 pm

    @38/ Dominguin: "I think you mean that Bench won in 1972 and 1977, 71 and 76 were BAD years even if he was a catcher, but still among the one or two best catchers in history.."

    Dominguin -
    No, I do not consider them "bad" years; in 1971 and 1976 his OPS+ was 107 and 109 respectively, his WAR was 3.7 and 3.9, he still hit for power and played good defense; he won the Gold Glove and Silver Slugger both years.

    By both mainstream awards and advanced analysis, he was still a solid, well-respected player; those two years just weren't at the awesome MVP-level people expected every year from Bench (the only two years between 1968 and 1977 that he did not get MVP votes). They are "bad" only in comparison to the rest of his career, or if you call any season with a BA below .240 "bad".

41. John Autin Says:
    October 13th, 2011 at 6:01 pm

    Answers to the question I posed @29:
    http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/jacksre01.shtml
    http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/w/wagneho01.shtml

42. Andy Says:
    October 13th, 2011 at 6:12 pm

    My unscientific assessment of players with a shot to win Comeback Player of the Year in 2012:

    Adam Dunn
    Magglio Ordonez
    Miguel Tejada
    Alex Rios
    Aaron Rowand
    Rafael Furcal
    Chone Figgins
    Aaron Hill
    Jason Bartlett
    Edgar Renteria
    Casey McGehee

    These are all guys who had pretty bad 2011's but had at least one very good to great season earlier. I didn't look at pitchers.

43. Jeff Says:
    October 13th, 2011 at 7:54 pm

    ctrl+f vogelsong
    ...
    BBWAA fail

44. mike Says:
    October 13th, 2011 at 8:21 pm

    My view of Comeback of the Year is:

    A = previously set peak (or normal) performance level
    B = performance level when player hits bottom (I accept either injury or just plain poor performance as justification for this award)
    C = performance level after comeback

    We want to maximize the value of (A-B)+(C-B), while minimizing the value of the difference between (A-B) and (C-B), or just the difference between A and C, which is the same thing. In other words, there has to be a reasonably good peak before the decline, and a reasonably good comeback to something near that level afterwards. In Ellsbury's case, C is way greater than A. Of course, for my candidate, Colon, A is greater than C.

45. Dukeofflatbush Says:
    October 13th, 2011 at 10:08 pm

    Anyone want to guess who is the only player to win this award twice?

46. Andy Says:
    October 13th, 2011 at 10:13 pm

    Norm Cash, Boog Powell, Bret Saberhagen, Rick Sutcliffe, Andres Galarraga and Chris Carpenter have all won it twice, although none since MLB has officially recognized it as an award.

47. Dukeofflatbush Says:
    October 13th, 2011 at 10:17 pm

    Sorry, I had no idea quite a few guys won it multiple tmes.
    In ’87 both NL and AL recipients of CBPOY also won the Cy Young award and would go on to win a second CBPOY.

48. Dukeofflatbush Says:
    October 13th, 2011 at 10:19 pm

    Andy, were you just waiting to pounce on that one? Well, quick on the draw… I feel ashamed:-(

49. Dukeofflatbush Says:
    October 13th, 2011 at 10:23 pm

    I believe Galarraga won it both ways Mike described a player earning the award.
    Once for kicking his career into another level in in 1993 and the other coming back from serious injury or illness (in his case cancer).
    He certainly had an up and down career.

50. tim Says:
    October 13th, 2011 at 10:23 pm

    I can't imagine anyone is excited to win this award. It kinda implies that you sucked the previous year.

51. Dukeofflatbush Says:
    October 13th, 2011 at 10:24 pm

    Has anyone here seen enough of TBS trying to sell that sitcom, BIGBANG THEORY...

52. Biff Says:
    October 13th, 2011 at 10:34 pm

    @32
    Exactly right about Berkman. He just plain stunk in 2010; the only comeback he had in 2011 was to the NL. Beltran would have been a much better choice. I personally would have liked to see Sean Burroughs win it, even if he didn't have many plate appearances.

    @42
    With pitchers, Jamie Moyer would be the coolest comeback ever if he can do it in 2012.

53. Cabriael Says:
    October 13th, 2011 at 10:47 pm

    Jerry Meals - the comeback umpire of the year.

    That shows how arrogant the umpires are.

    He ruined Pirates' season, yet he gets into postseason! O ve.

    At least we are missing Jim Joyce's "lifetime experience" in this postseason. I hope we continue to miss it for the kingdom come.

54. Ed Says:
    October 13th, 2011 at 10:48 pm

    @14 Lawrence Arzin Off the top of my head, Cliff Lee fits the criteria of someone who won the award while not being hurt the prior year. After 33 starts in 2006, he made 26 starts plus 4 relief appearances in 2007 (major +minor league combined).

55. Mike Says:
    October 13th, 2011 at 10:49 pm

    To re-post of what Lawrence said in #8:

    The Major League Baseball Comeback Player of the Year Award is presented by Major League Baseball (MLB) to the player who is judged to have "re-emerged on the baseball field during a given season."

    Whether you come back from injury or whether you come back from having a poor season, it's still considered re-emerging. I don't have a problem with either of the 2 winning it. Both deserved it, and of course, both won for different reasons.

56. Frank Clingenpeel Says:
    October 13th, 2011 at 11:06 pm

    Dominguin {#15}

    Excellent observation, particularly with regard to Campy. It seemed to me that he was rotating good and bad years on a "every other year" basis; and I was expecting '58 to be his fourth MVP season...at least, before his accident.

57. Ed Says:
    October 13th, 2011 at 11:10 pm

    @31 Howard Rosen Your explanation of Cash's 64 season doesn't appear to be accurate. He had one horrible month (June) but otherwise was fine, including April/May.

    This bio of Cash credits his comeback award in 1965 to what he did in the second half of 1965: .720 OPS first half of the year, .948 during the second half.

    http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=1831&pid=2227

58. Johnny Twisto Says:
    October 14th, 2011 at 12:29 am

    Has anyone here seen enough of TBS trying to sell that sitcom, BIGBANG THEORY...

    I had heard of it but had no clue what it was all about before this postseason. Unsurprised to see I've been missing nothing.

    Of course, that's not the only ad I'm more than sick of.

    And of course, every season there are several ads which drive me nuts.

    I really spend too much time thinking about ads. They drive me crazy and yet I'll find myself having memorized and overanalyzed them into oblivion.

    Anyway, yes. Those losers on Big Bang Theory could all use a punch in the grill. I don't get the appeal, but that's true of most network sitcoms. Whatever.

59. Timothy P. Says:
    October 14th, 2011 at 3:52 am

    Berkman is awesome! When he played for the Yankees and batted from the left side it was like watching the Babe. Maybe a young Babe?

60. Andy Says:
    October 14th, 2011 at 7:43 am

    #48 You should feel that way after that self-righteous attack on me you posted. I'm still not over that one.

    I have to admit--I really like Big Bang Theory. I'm exactly the kind of superdork the show is geared towards.

61. Ed Says:
    October 14th, 2011 at 8:28 am

    @60 Andy I'm not a superdork and I rarely watch tv but I make an exception for Big Bang Theory. Heck, my girlfriend, who's an artist not a scientist, finds the show hilarious as well. She's not even from the US and english isn't her native language but she "gets it". The fact that others don't get it is their loss.

    Anyway guess we're drifting WAY off topic....

62. Lawrence Azrin Says:
    October 14th, 2011 at 10:32 am

    @50/ Tim -
    "I can't imagine anyone is excited to win this award. It kinda implies that you sucked the previous year."

    Tim - As a Red Sox fan, I would be THRILLED if John Lackey or Carl Crawford was the 2012 Comeback Player of the Year, I don't know how they would feel.

    @54/ Ed - Yes, Cliff Lee was not hurt in 2007, but he did miss a lot of starts with the Indians on account he was in the minors a good part of the year (he pitched 97 innings in MLB in 2007). So I'd say that the fact that he pitched less than half a season at the MLB level does mean that he "re-emerged" in 2008.

63. Ed Says:
    October 14th, 2011 at 1:36 pm

    @62 Yes, but your challenge to me was to name a recent winner who hadn't been injured the year before.

64. mosc Says:
    October 14th, 2011 at 3:08 pm

    I disagree strongly with Berkman for CBPOY. Not because of his performance in 2011, but because of his performance in 2010, 2009, and prior. He's not a comeback player, he's a never-left player. The guy "stank" only in 37 games he played for the yankees. In 2010 with Houston he was below his career averages but was battling injury and was still well above a replacement level player. I can't see giving a borderline HOF candidate a comeback award because he had a bad end to the 2010 season. That's absurd. His 2010 OPS+ ended up at 112! Why is he even in consideration?

65. mosc Says:
    October 14th, 2011 at 3:14 pm

    I also don't buy elsbury. He's a never-was before 2011. That makes him probably the easiest "emerging player of the year" easy pick, but not a comeback player. His 2008 and 2009 power and on base numbers are not good. You can say his 2007 was his "true" form if you want, but that was all of 33 games (with 3HR's. Nothing like the power he would show in 2011). Yeah, the guy was terrible in his 2010 starts but that was injury related. Elsbury had never put up close to a all-star season in his career until 2011. That doesn't make 2011 a return to form, it makes it a new level he's reached.

66. mosc Says:
    October 14th, 2011 at 3:18 pm

    and what the hell, I'll go 3 in a row

    Give me Alex Gordon and Jose Reyes. Both guys were top young players that really struggled recently and put up great numbers in 2011. Both of them also had success in the past.

67. Lawrence Azrin Says:
    October 14th, 2011 at 4:50 pm

    @63/ Ed - Ok, you got me.

68. Dominguin Says:
    October 14th, 2011 at 4:58 pm

    lawrence@40
    lets call them OFF years, 71 was very OFF.....the 71 Reds depended on Bench heavily and they went down 23 games in the win column. His OBP was .299 so we can both quote the stats we want.

    76 was better then 71, but the presence of Joe Morgan in the Reds lineup minimized other player s off years. And yes, as a catcher Bench couldn t put up MVP votes years every year..

    Maybe the best career balance between hitting and fielding of any catcher........he and Berra, its a very small club, Carter a notch below and then the debate about the others.

    .

69. John Autin Says:
    October 14th, 2011 at 10:47 pm

    @64/65, Mosc -- I'm with you on Berkman, but I think you're way off on Ellsbury. Maybe he was never especially good before, but he was a full-time player for 2 years with an average of 2.8 WAR. He averaged 96 runs, led the league in steals twice and triples once. Your assessment is way too harsh.

70. Dominguin Says:
    October 15th, 2011 at 11:41 am

    mosc@65, John Autin@69
    Ellsbury was a never was??????
    Never wa especially good before?

    I understnad that John was trying to be gracious......but Mosc, your assessment was tt way too harsh, it was wrong!

    How does someone steal 120 out of 133 in two years and he s a never was? Someone has to be DAMNED good to get on base that amount of times to have that many steal attempts and that high a success percentage..... .

    In 2009, he had 188 hits,led the league in triples and stolen bases, stole 70 of 82 ..and hit .301....I have no idea whay his numbers were at the All Star break...but if that isn t an All star year.......what is?......

    Never was?

    Baseball is unpredictable....and players decline for all kinds of reasons...so the future for Ellsbury is unknowm,

    And althoiugh eh was injured in 2010, so far what I ve seen is the frist five years of a potential HOF career.

    If I were Brian Cashman and t were possible I would trade right now Granderson for Ellsbury and I would be willing to throw something in, maybe some cash or a minor league prospect or two....Its a trade that won t happen, but I would LOVE to see Ellsbury in Yankee pinstripes.

71. Andy Says:
    October 15th, 2011 at 1:26 pm

    I think you might be misinterpreting mosc's comment. I think his point is that Ellsbury won the award for perhaps the wrong reason--he put up an awesome eye-opening season that was far better than anything he had done before, and since he was injured most of last season, they gave it to him. But the award is in theory for a guy who returned to form after poor peformance, not one who posted a career-best performance after an injury.

72. Dominguin Says:
    October 15th, 2011 at 4:40 pm

    Mosc said that Ellsbury s 2007 and 2008 power and on base numbers were not good.

    I don t agree, in those two years he did everything you would expect from a lLEAD OFF hitter, and he stole a TON of bases with a very high success percentage. l

    George Brett hit exactly 2 HRs and had 28 extra base hots in his first full major league season, there were years that he hit under 10 HRS and years that he hit over 20 HRS. Are we going to say that Brett didn t have good power numbers in the first part of his career? I think its more accurate to say that he developed as a player, but there was always A LOT OF hits, and A LOT of doubles and very good to very high BAs

    With Ellsbury, i see a lot of hits and a lot of stolen bases and very good to hgh BAs . Will Ellsbury be another Brett or God forbid......Stan Musial? Maybe.... I certainly hope so.

    Will he have another year like 2001. Dont know, but he ll be interesting to watch him.

    BUT BEFORE 2011 he WAS SOMEBODY....an excellent lead off hitter and an exceptionally successful base stealer .

73. mosc Says:
    October 17th, 2011 at 10:37 am

    So the subject then is how good elsbury was in 2009 I guess. He lead the league in stolen bases, I get it. Did he have a return to from in 2011 in terms of stolen bases? NO! He was 9th in MLB, not first by a big margin. In 2009 he hit .301, but only managed a .355 OBP. There were 74 guys better than that. The average OBP for the redsox that year was .352, (.365 for the yankees). Elsbury did not get on base at an exceptional rate in 2009, batting average be damned. You want to talk runs? He was 32nd in baseball. Pedroia had more (more obp too), with only 1 more game played on his own team!

    You're talking bout a guy that was 0.019 above league average for OPS in 2009. He was above replacement level, with excellent speed and no power, but nothing like what he was in 2011. In 2011 he was a true 5-tool player MVP candidate in his prime.

74. gringoculto Says:
    October 19th, 2011 at 2:57 pm

    Yes he lead the league in stolen bases in BOTH 2008 and 2009 with VERY HIGH SB success percentages...... What you are are omititng to mention is that in 2011 he had 27 FEWER base stealing attempts then in 2009!

    Check the batting lineups of the 2009 Red Sox and you ll see why Pedro scored 27 more runs then Ellsbury

    We both agree that Ellsbury was a 5 tool player in 20011. what I disagreed with was your charaqcterization that he NEVER was before 2011.

    There aren t that many players who START and continue their carrers like DiMaggio or Ted Williams or Pujols, just a handful.

    Most players take a while to grow. It will be interesting to see the rest of Ellsbury s career unfold.