DJ3K:HR
Posted by John Autin on July 9, 2011
Derek Jeter's 2nd hit of the game, a game-tying HR off David Price into the LF stands, was the 3,000th hit of his career. Wade Boggs is the only other player who homered for number 3,000.
Jeter last homered (twice) on May 8 in Texas. I'd give some more Jeter stats, but the B-R search engine is apparently swamped at the moment.
So I'll just say: Congratulations to an exemplary player on reaching a great milestone.
July 11th, 2011 at 6:34 am
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/PA_leagues.shtml
Not necessarily the best measure, but quick and dirty.
League leaders earlier in the century were generally in the low to mid 700's. Nowadays, they are typically in the mid- to high- 700's. Obviously, this can be due to more than just increased offense and there is tons of noise in the data, but it certainly doesn't refute the point.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/PA_season.shtml
10 of the top 25 (40%) and 22 of top 55 (44%; Brady Anderson's 1992 season just missed the cutoff) came since 1993 (18 years, about 12% of seasons).
July 11th, 2011 at 8:58 am
@95, BSK-despite your Red Sox leanings, I'd say that's a very good argument. There are a number of HOF, even first ballot guys, who had a modest final few or sometimes several years to their careers. Ripken was replacement level offensively his last ten years, Griffey Jr. struggles have been well documented, etc etc. But these players also had extended levels of peak performance that were well above what players like Damon were accomplishing.
So, if you were a GM and you had perfect foresight-which ones would you take? That's really not a hard question. You go for the Griffey Jr. for the first ten years-because you figure you can always find a decent player to match up to Damon for the last five.
And, if that weren't true, you would have had GM's fighting each other to get a piece of the present Damon.
July 11th, 2011 at 10:33 am
I agree that Damon is a borderline HoF player and that his chances rest solely on whether he gets to 3000 hits. I agree that Trammell was a better player, but I agree with Thomas that you don't keep someone out of the Hall that has 3000 hits. 28 people ever have done this, and if he gets there and gets in, there will have been much much bigger injustices. People continue to say someone undeserving will get to 3000 hits. Like 300 wins to a degree, 3000 hits will become tougher and tougher to get to IMO. It's not like it use to be where teams would let players play out another 3 years hanging on. Damon is on pace for a WAR of 3 this season.
With all that said, I don't think Damon or Vizquel get there. However, Damon has put up a very nice first half that puts him on pace for 17, 75, 280, 330 and 170 hits. If he can put up the same number next year he could get there. If he can also get to a WAR of 55 along with 1800 runs, 3000 hits, 400 SB, and 2 WS rings I'd have no problem with him going in with an OPS+ of 105.
July 11th, 2011 at 10:37 am
Gwynn borderline and maybe not making if he fell short of 3000 hits is ridiculous.
July 11th, 2011 at 10:42 am
BK --I caught that ridiculous statement about Jeter not getting a hit against a current HoF. It was a stupid comment since he has gotten hits off of Johnson, Clemens, Mussina, Smoltz, Glavine, Schilling and Hoffman, all which are very likely going in.
July 11th, 2011 at 10:51 am
Yea, I'm also pretty sure Jeter has never played with current member of the HOF. In 20 years, he'll possibly have at least 10 teammates make it (Clemens, RJ, Rivera, ARod, Posada, Damon, Pettitte, Mussina, Boggs, Raines, K. Brown, Abreu all standing a chance and Teixeira and Cano working their way there)*. But, yea, as of right now, he hasn't played with a single HOFer. Kind of a silly argument to make.
* I don't necessarily think that all of these guys will or should, but they'll all likely receive some real support for it.
July 11th, 2011 at 10:55 am
@100, Timmy -- To be clear, I make no PED accusation against Damon, nor do I have any reason for a specific suspicion.
But I vehemently disagree with the common practice of implying that a player from this era was clean just because he never officially tested positive, wasn't named in the Mitchell Report and had no obvious spikes in performance.
I submit that neither you nor I has any clue whether or not Johnny Damon (or any other player) used PEDs, and that trying to deduce such status based on the performance record -- and then use that deduction as an argument for or against the player's HOF credentials -- is a fool's errand.
July 11th, 2011 at 11:23 am
I don't even begin to see where Damon has any argument at all.
Ask yourself two questions:
1) If he retired today, would he be a Hall of Famer? Any rational person would say no (sorry Timmy, nobody is going to argue that you are rational).
2) Is he really going to be better in any future age 37, 38, 39 season than he was when he played in KC or Oakland or Boston? The answer is an obvious "no."
So you have a guy who isn't a HOF player now and if he continues playing he will be less of a player. But if he compiles stats, he somehow magically becomes one? I really hope all of you aren't that stupid. Sorry if that seems insulting, but you sully the reputation of intelligent baseball fans by even making the argument. It's just embarassing.
July 11th, 2011 at 11:47 am
Goddamnit, Jiffy. You said exactly what I said but in about 1000 less words. Well played, sir.
July 11th, 2011 at 12:26 pm
@108 and 109, I'm going to disagree slightly. I don't think Damon has performed at the level of the HOF, and I agree he's not going to do anything so spectacular over the remainder of his career that's going to change that. But, "I am that stupid", and I think that passing some thresholds-with the balance of his career showing that a high quality player, should merit inclusion. I'm not sure if it's 3000 hits with nothing else special-maybe it's 3300 or 3500 hits for guys like that. And maybe someone has to be the test case, and maybe Damon is it. But I would be wary of too much subjectivity when a player has accomplished something that everyone thought was really special-until he did it.
July 11th, 2011 at 12:44 pm
@98 Tim P,
Your points are pure conjecture or outright false. The Expos' teams Raines played for were not "crappy teams". If you take the Expos from 1980-1990, they were 815-748 with a .521 win%. And your point about meaningless stat padding is silly. How exactly do you pad sb stats when your doing it at an 88% clip? At that rate your helping your team win plain and simple.
A .30 advantage in on base percentage is substantial especially when you consider one player was playing in Le Stade Olympique during the 80's and the other was playing in Fenway Park/Yankee Stadium during the 2000's.
To put that in further context Raines finished in the Top 5 in On Base Percentage 6 times and Damon never finished in the Top 10 even one time in his career.
From 1983-1987, Raines at his peak was the second best player in the NL next to Mike Schmidt. During this time period he had a .406 on base percentage which was the highest On Base percentage in the NL and the second highest overall. He stole 355 bases out of 402 attempts for an 88% success rate. That's just phenomenal.
Also Damon was a pretty lousy defensive center fielder with the Red Sox, he was actually a more valuable player playing Left with the Yankees.
Raines from 1981-1990 was among the Top 10 players in baseball. Damon by comparison at his best was among the Top 25 players from 1999-2008 and at that he was probably about the 25th best player.
All that being said Damon has a decent chance at getting in the HOF if he follows the Don Sutton/Tony Perez/Lou Brock path. Damon will probably have to get something like 3200 hits and 1800 runs scored.
July 11th, 2011 at 1:16 pm
Raines was a better player than Damon! Raines was great for 8 seasons and then padded some afterwards. Raines was great with good counting numbers, whereas Damon was good, but could end up with great counting numbers. Raines should get in before Johnny does regardless whether he gets to 3000 hits or not.
July 11th, 2011 at 1:22 pm
Damon will probably have to get something like 3200 hits That is so stupid it doesn't even get a response! Think about what you're saying moron. Keep repeating to yourself and your groupthink friends "Raines is great" and pretty soon he'll have 3000 hits.
July 11th, 2011 at 1:26 pm
@111 How many playoff games did they host up there at "Le Stade Olympique"? Why are you using French on an English website?
July 11th, 2011 at 1:32 pm
More 3,000 hitters in the late 80's versus. Other factors besides steroids.
From 1936-1940 (National League only) about 9.5 hits/game there was only 1 3,000 hitter.
From 1988-1993 (National League only) about 8.5 hits/game when the 3,000 hitters were more abundant.
So you would think hits/player would drop.
Only 2 3,000 hit players played during WWII and those were either starting or ending their careers. I would say it cost some of the best hitters 150 to 200 hits/year. These would have been people playing starting their careers in the 1930's.
Careers are longer - think about a 35 year old asking for a 5 year contract before free agency.
More players because there are 30 vs 16 teams. Older players often switch teams signing 1 year free agent contracts. Seasons are 5 percent longer giving them 150 more hits.
DH - prolongs careers as well as better conditioning techniques.
Integregation played a role in providing a larger pool of talent.
In 1967 there were 8 3,000 hit players on 20 teams.
In 1991 there were 11 players for 26.
The peak prior to WWII was 5 for 16 teams right before WWI and about 15 years after the formation of the American League. So the 1930's would have seen a drop because older players delayed the start of their career and young players had their careers interupted later. The number of teams were constant from 1901 to 1960.
July 11th, 2011 at 1:33 pm
Timmy P --I'm a Yankee fan, always have been, and I didn't want to see Damon go...and yes, Damon has been a good player that always new the big moment, but it's really not that close, Raines was a much better player than Damon ever was. Raines suffers from playing in Ricky's shadow, but Raines was an elite player for close to 10 years --many forget this. Raines padded for 10 years afterwards and therefore left a bad (less than Hall taste) taste in people's mouths whereas Damon is closer to the player he's always been. No need to insult people.
July 11th, 2011 at 1:34 pm
Favorite Derek Jeter moment.
Derek is playing in from 3B because the batter was going to bunt. Derek runs over and catches the bunt pop up between home plate and 1st base.
July 11th, 2011 at 1:38 pm
@108 jiffy I'm not the only one that thinks Damon will be in the HoF so you should be careful who you call stupid. If he gets to 3000 he will get in and all the newstat talk in the world will not keep him out.
July 11th, 2011 at 1:43 pm
@99 JA do you have the numbers to back the claim that if Damon gets to 3000 hits it will be because he had more AB's during the high run scoring era? In other words can you give us a ballpark number of hits Damon got because of the steroid era?
July 11th, 2011 at 1:49 pm
Timmy P,
How old are you? Name-Calling??
Resorting to name-calling and calling people names like "moron" makes you appear like a junior high school kid.
You call me "moron" and you're ignorant to the fact that people in Montreal and the province of Quebec speak French?? The name of the Stadium where the Expos played was called "Le Stade Olympique" it's not that complicated. Go to BR section on teams and click on the Montreal Expos and you can see very clearly under ballpark, "Stade Olympique."
Not that it's relevant to anything that was posted but "Le Stade Olympique" hosted 5 playoff games in 1981 and probably would have hosted at least 3 more had there not been a strike in 1994.
July 11th, 2011 at 1:56 pm
@115 Charles,
I don't think that 3000 hits was that big a milestone until sometime in the 50's or 60's. If it was a major milestone pre WW2 then players like Sam Rice and Sam Crawford would have played an extra half season in order to reach the milestone.
July 11th, 2011 at 2:01 pm
I remember watching highlights on ESPN from Olympic Stadium all the time. I don't recall any World Series games ever been hosted there. I remember watching the 2004 playoffs played at le Stade Janquies, and le parque Fenway.
July 11th, 2011 at 2:12 pm
@121 The manager in Detroit had a personal vendetta against Sam Crawford and he was trying to make life as hard as possible on him. Sam went on to have good years in the PCL after he left Detroit. Unfortunately for Wahoo Sam he had to wait until 1957 to be inducted into the HoF because he was an independent thinker and did not polish sportswriters apples after he retired.
July 11th, 2011 at 2:25 pm
Trolly P is still at it I see.
If Damon is a Hall of Fame player right now there are dozens upon dozens of guys that belong in the Hall, and while I will agree that the Hall currently lacks a few worthy inductees, the Hall of Fame is analogous to the Hall of Great Players even though that is not its title. A Johnny Damon belongs in the Hall of Very Good Players.
July 11th, 2011 at 2:37 pm
Damon's career all-time offensive ranks:
MVP Shares: 1012th
WAR: 238th
WAR Position Players: 164th
Offensive WAR: 144th
Batting Average: NR
Games Played: 91st
ABs: 52nd
PA: 55th
Rs: 45th
Hs: 68th
Total Bases: 77th
Doubles: 51st
Triples: 144th
HRs: 247th
RBIs: 202nd
BBs: 134th
Ks: 155th
SBs: 76th
Singles: 75th
Runs Created: 77th
XBH: 86th
TOB: 75th
SH: 29th
SF: 161st
CS: 114th
Power-Speed #: 29th
AB/SO: 27th
Outs Made: 55th
RE24: 181st
WPA: 193rd
WPA/LI: 246th
REW: 197th
He has led the league in something 3 times... Rs and SBs in 2000 and 3Bs in 2002 and has relatively few top-10 finishes in any meaningful stats. How is he a HOFer again?
July 11th, 2011 at 2:41 pm
Fireworks says I think the conversation about Damon gets a lot more interesting if he manages to be a regular generating 3+ WAR a year for another half decade plus and knocks on the door of 3500 hits. That is so stupid it defies explanations. 3500 hits? Really? Do you even read what you post? Do you know how many guys have 3500 hits? I think you are so stupid that your wife cries herself to sleep at night.
July 11th, 2011 at 2:43 pm
BSK why do call Bernie Williams bad names? Are you a racist?
July 11th, 2011 at 2:46 pm
@ 121 True. That's another factor. Some players now may want to stick around to get the 3,000. For Rice and Crawford if they had played in a 162 game season, they would have made it.
Sam Rice was playing in the minors in 1912, but left to join the Navy. His major league career started when he was in 1915 as a pitcher when he was 25 playing in 4 games. He switched to the outfield in 1916.
Sam Rice was in the military in WWI, playing in only 7 games in 1918.
After he retired, he was offered a job with the Senators to get his last 13 hits but he declined, saying he was out of shape.
July 11th, 2011 at 2:50 pm
He has led the league in something 3 times... Rs and SBs in 2000
Well, the SB don't count, since the Royals lost every single game they played and he got all his SB when they were losing by at least 14 runs.
July 11th, 2011 at 2:52 pm
Crawford played as a regular in the minors for 4 years after his major league career.
July 11th, 2011 at 2:58 pm
@129 And don't forget he was on steroids!
July 11th, 2011 at 3:01 pm
To play five more years as a regular Damon would have to drink from the fountain of youth. Or the fountain of something. What a sales job from Boras that would be.
July 11th, 2011 at 3:13 pm
Sam Crawford was released by Detroit in favor of HOF member Harry Heilmann.
Sam Rice said that he did not know how many hits he had until a couple of years after he retired when Clark Griffith offered to let him play to get the 3,000.
July 11th, 2011 at 3:17 pm
There we go, Timmy Pin Laden just admitted Damon used steroids.
July 11th, 2011 at 3:50 pm
@93, Jason, re: 3,000 hits "didn't mean anything in the 30s. You didn't have people playing just to reach statistical milestones in that era."
Without commenting on your premise, I'll disagree that it was a significant factor in the relative dearth of 3,000-hitters in the '30s.
Who are the players from that era who might have gotten to 3,000 hits if they'd hung on a few more years?
-- Al Simmons (2,923 hits) clearly did try to hang on as long as he could, bouncing around to 4 different teams in his last 5 seasons (most of them bad teams) and batting just .202 in his last 3 years.
-- Mel Ott (2,876 hits) went from hitting .308 with 21 HRs at age 36 to .074 with 1 HR at 37 (5 hits in 68 AB) and 0-4 at age 38. I would argue that 3,000 hits was a meaningful milestone by the time Ott got close to it, and if he'd wanted to write his name in the lineup more often, I don't think anyone would have quibbled, seeing as how the Giants were going nowhere in those years. But I think he knew he was finished.
-- Charlie Gehringer (2,839 hits) looked to be slowing down in his last full season, batting .220 in 1941 at age 38. Then he went into the Navy for 4 years during WWII, so he never really got to decide whether to "hang around" in pursuit of 3,000.
-- Frankie Frisch (2,880 hits) was a replacement-level player in his last full year, age 37, then batted .219 (7 for 32) at age 38. Maybe he only needed 120 hits to reach 3,000, but he averaged only 94 hits in his last 2 full years.
-- Goose Goslin (2,735 hits) played until he was washed up, hitting .238 at age 36 and getting released by Detroit, then .158 (9 for 57) in his final tour of Washington.
-- Lou Gehrig (2,721 hits) never got the chance.
-- Luke Appling (2,749 hits) played until he was 43. At 42 he was a productive full-timer, but at 43 the bottom fell out, and he was still 250 hits away.
-- Doc Cramer (2,705) played until age 42.
So, who are the guys who realistically might have gotten to 3,000 hits if they'd been willing to "hang on" a couple more years in pursuit of the milestone?
July 11th, 2011 at 3:55 pm
As the self-appointed volunteer debate coach, I'd like to reiterate that describing an argument as "stupid" (or any words to that effect) is poor technique and scores no points with anyone.
July 11th, 2011 at 4:02 pm
@118 -- Keep it real, Timmy! You were the first one on this thread to drop the "stupid" bomb (see comment #82). You're in no position to scold anyone else on that topic.
July 11th, 2011 at 4:07 pm
@119, Timmy -- B-R's Neutralized Batting formula estimates that Damon has gotten about 88 more hits than he might have playing in a historically average run environment.
July 11th, 2011 at 4:39 pm
88 hits? I really don't think the era JD played in had much affect on his game. A few more AB's every year could easily be wiped out by a couple of stints on the DL.
July 11th, 2011 at 5:06 pm
@ 135 From the Baseball Biography Project
Late in his playing career, Simmons set a goal of obtaining 3,000 base hits but retired in 1941. With World War II military demands for younger players, he became a player-coach, appearing in 40 games for the Red Sox in 1943. After six at-bats for the Athletics in 1944, he retired.
Close enough to benefit with a 162 game season.
Mel Ott was the player manager for the Giants from 1942-1948. On Opening Day in 1946, he hit his final homer, the 511th of his career. The next day, Mel dove for a fly ball, injured his knee, and played infrequently for the rest of the season. He had 4 pinch hitting appearances the next year. Without the injury, a repeat of his 1945 season in 1946 would have given him 3,000.
July 11th, 2011 at 5:24 pm
As people mentioned, 2 times there were players who got their 3000th hit as a HR (Jeter and Boggs)
If interested though, the Tampa Bay Rays/Devil Rays were in both of those games
Also, John Flaherty witnessed both home runs (he was on the Rays in 99, and he did the Yankees broadcast for that game)
Manny Ramirez would have been on the other end of both games if he was still on the Rays today. Boggs did it against the Indians (Manny was on the team) and Manny would have been on the Rays today if he didn't retire (unless he was traded)
July 11th, 2011 at 7:53 pm
We started this talking about Jeter, and we should end it with him. That's a pretty darn good player, a no doubt about it Hall of Famer who got to 3000 with style points.
July 11th, 2011 at 9:40 pm
Yea, we're kind of sullying Jeter's remarkable career with all this talk of Damon's good-not-great career.
July 11th, 2011 at 9:59 pm
Agreed...Jeter had the best 3000 hit game ever and that's pretty awesome!
July 11th, 2011 at 10:34 pm
Jeter has a decent chance to wind up with more Times On Base than any SS in the history of the game. He's currently 4th; should pass Yount next month, could catch Ripken next year and Wagner the year after.
He also will almost surely end up with more Runs than any SS ever; he's currently 3rd, should pass Wagner soon, and A-Rod will probably wind up being classified a 3B for these purposes (needs 208 more games at 3B).
Even when considering the advantages of his era and his team, those would be quite a pair of records.
July 11th, 2011 at 11:18 pm
So JA if Damon gets to 3088 hits, you'll reconsider his being good enough for the HoF?
July 11th, 2011 at 11:48 pm
Timmy, for you, I'll do that. 🙂
July 11th, 2011 at 11:49 pm
And I'll make the same promise about Juan Pierre and Carlos Zambrano.
July 12th, 2011 at 12:31 am
There's a consensus then. Johnny Damon is a Hall of Famer.
(So long as that Hall of Fame is the Noodle Arm Hall of Fame.)
July 12th, 2011 at 1:57 am
@149 I am rolling on the floor laughing so hard.
July 12th, 2011 at 6:49 am
JA-
I'm not sure if this is something that can be calculated after the fact, but you noted where Jeter might end up ranking relative to other SS. My first thought was, "SS or not, Jeter was a HOFer." But then I thought more about then and wondered if that was true. I know this may be a bit of a pointless thought experiment, but isn't that what the internet is for? My question is, suppose Jeter played RF, put up the exact same offensive numbers, and offered replacement level defense (such that his dWAR = 0). What would his WAR look like? Is there an easy way to estimate that? I know that there is a flat amount of runs added/subtracted to RAR based on defensive positioning, but I don't know how that is done. Is there any position where Jeter's numbers wouldn't be considered exceptional? This isn't meant to knock Jeter... just more as an attempt to better understand how we account for positioning in our evaluation of players and how Jeter's ability* to play SS impacted his overall value.
* I realize Jeter has his defensive limitations and many would argue he didn't have much of an ability to play SS, but being able to man a position, even at below replacement level, has value. He was able to make the throws and turn double plays and position himself as necessary. Compare him to someone like Jason Giambi, who would probably fall down like a drunk on New Years if they put him at SS.
July 12th, 2011 at 7:36 am
OK, all. I'm going to try to close the circle again. Here's something from an article by Wayne Coffey today's Daily News.
"Jeter hit .508 in his senior year at Kalamazoo Central - and struck out only once. In his rookie ball opener, the Yankees played a doubleheader in Sarasota against the White Sox. Jeter went 0-for-7 and struck out five times. He would wind up hitting .202 for the season, or 147 points behind the Gulf Coast League batting champion, Johnny Damon."
July 12th, 2011 at 11:54 am
My question is, suppose Jeter played RF, put up the exact same offensive numbers, and offered replacement level defense (such that his dWAR = 0). What would his WAR look like?
His total defensive value (Rfield + Rpos) has been -15 runs. The seasonal Rpos for a full-time RF is about -8 runs per season. Let's say Jeter has played about 15 full seasons. That would be a career Rpos of -120 runs. Assume he was an absolutely average defender, and the difference in his defensive value is about 105 runs, or around 10 wins.
July 12th, 2011 at 4:56 pm
Thanks, Mustachio. That'd put him at about 60 WAR, assuming he was a completely average defensive right fielder. Interesting.
July 12th, 2011 at 4:56 pm
Or, completely replacement level. Is that different than "average"? I guess it is how we define average.
July 12th, 2011 at 5:39 pm
Another reason why I don't like the oWAR and dWAR breakdown is because it causes this confusion. What makes someone replacement-level is the totality of their contributions. A lot (most?) replacement players are weak hitters and decent fielders, but I think it is inaccurate and misleading to call an average fielder a "replacement level" fielder, although he will have 0 dWAR. Average is average, and to the extent one could identify or define replacement level fielding, it would certainly be worse than average.
July 12th, 2011 at 6:42 pm
I think this is fine theoretically, but I don't see it a fair measure in practice. Players like Yount, Rose and even Yogi Berra went to the outfield, in part, to prolong their careers and help them sustain their hitting skills. Thome came up as a third basement, Mantle was a shortstop. Outside of politicians screaming at each other, the loudest cries you hear coming out of Minn is for Mauer to stop catching-that's not because they want his WAR to go down. They are looking to get the maximum productivity from the player, given the skill set he has. No-one knows what Jeter would have done if he had started out as an outfielder-perhaps he would have had a higher ceiling as a hitter.
July 12th, 2011 at 7:14 pm
Mike L, agreed. I think BSK meant it theoretically and I took it that way. There are obviously a lot of unknowns.
July 13th, 2011 at 9:25 am
Indeed, Mustachio. I wasn't attempting to prove a point... more just to understand how defensive positioning/ability factors in. If Jeter were a RF, he likely could have (and probably would have) been able to add more weight to his frame, possibly generating more power and increasing his overall offensive contributions. We never know. I'm not one for the "What if" game... what happened happened. I was just trying to get a bit of context.
July 13th, 2011 at 1:16 pm
Mustachioed and BSK; I took it that way. It's one of the cool things about baseball-you try to equalize for era, park effects, etc, but you can't full express what a player's best destiny would have been. A moose like Thome, Thomas, Adam Dunn, the Fielders, etc. really only have a couple of options. You hope the organizations they start with have the intelligence to put them in the right place, but especially in the era of the long term contract, that may not be possible if someone good is blocking them. So, do they alter their hitting approach or swing, their training?
July 13th, 2011 at 4:33 pm
If he came up 30 years earlier, I think it's likely Jeter gets moved to CF. MLB wasn't as fond of 6'3" shortstops back then.
July 13th, 2011 at 7:42 pm
Time and place sensitive. If you came up between 1937 and 1964, you weren't going to be the Yankees centerfielder. That would be an interesting study-pre-free agent era players who were blocked by stars on their teams and had to either be traded, or switch positions.
July 13th, 2011 at 9:07 pm
True, I wasn't even thinking of it from a Yankee perspective.
Willie McCovey came up right after Orlando Cepeda had taken the Giants' 1B job. Cepeda didn't want to play OF, so McCovey was put out there for a few years, despite being quite unsuited for the position, until Cepeda finally got hurt and was traded. There are tons of others but that one comes to mind. I agree it's a very interesting topic. I'm sure there are some good summaries floating about the Internet.
July 14th, 2011 at 5:57 am
well, with Mauer, at this point, almost ANYWHERE, that he goes, at this point, is an upgrade..........C-to-SP??
July 14th, 2011 at 5:58 am
At. This. Point. (God, do I wish, that it were possible, to edit comments....)
July 15th, 2011 at 7:57 am
@ 162
AAA Outfielders for Yankees in 1950 and career games with Yankees
Archie Wilson 7 games
Culley Rikard did not play
Hank Workman 2 games
Bob Cerv 221 games in 6 years, back-up OF in 54-57, traded to Athletics in 1957, came back to Yankees later in career
Jim Gleeson did not play
Dain Clay did not play
Clarence Wojtowicz did not play
Bill Renna 61 games in 1953 as back-up OF
Fenton Mole 10 games
Bill Virdon did not play
July 15th, 2011 at 8:34 am
1965 Tresh switched outfield spots with Mantle going to LF
1966 Mantle back in CF, Tresh plays LF,CF,3B
1967 Pepitone goes to CF, swapping 1B with Mantle, Tresh in LF
1968 Pepitone in CF, Mantle at 1B, Tresh at SS
1969 Mantle retired, Pepitone at 1B, Tresh sees limited time at SS, 6 players play at least 19 games in CF
1970 Bobby Murcer returns from the military to play CF.until 1973, switched to RF for one year, then traded to Giants
July 15th, 2011 at 11:15 am
@166, Charles -- "Fenton Mole"? You're pulling our leg! 🙂
July 15th, 2011 at 12:37 pm
JA-apparently "Fenton Leroy Mole", also known as "Muscles". Makes one wonder what he did after he retired.
July 15th, 2011 at 1:52 pm
Mike -- "Muscles" must have been given to him by his buddies.
If I were an opposing player, I would have called him "Little Lord Fent-Leroy."
July 15th, 2011 at 2:55 pm
John: this might be the first recorded evidence of steroid use. I'd be careful with a guy like this.