Rulebook Challenge — Experts, please help!
Posted by John Autin on June 13, 2011
[This post began as what I considered a not-too-difficult rules challenge from tonight's Mets-Pirates game. But now, all is confusion. If you are an expert on the MLB Rules, specifically Rule 7.00, "The Runner," we would appreciate hearing from you!]
Video of the play: http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=15850955
In the top of the 8th, trailing 2-0, the Mets had Ruben Tejada on 3rd and Lucas Duda at 1st with no outs. Jose Reyes hit a sinking liner into short LF, but Jose Tabata made a sliding grab just above the grasstops; the umpire made a prompt (and correct) "out" call. Tejada had tagged up at 3rd, but Duda misread the play and went too far towards 2nd before turning back. Tejada crossed the plate ahead of Tabata's throw, which was cut off and fired to 1st base to double off Duda.
As this chaotic play wound down, and with the Mets announcers speculating that Tejada had left 3rd too soon, a Pirate fielder with the ball jogged over and stepped on 3rd base, looking to the 3rd base umpire for an out call. But the umpire gave no sign at all. Tejada's run stayed on the scoreboard, and the inning continued without further incident.
Why didn't the umpire give a sign when the Pirates stepped on 3rd base?
Here's a link to MLB Rule 7: http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/official_rules/runner_7.jsp
June 15th, 2011 at 1:16 am
Checked with a couple of my buddies (umpires) tonight after we finished our game. We work mainly with 3 man crews, so aren't 100% sure on the correct positioning when working with 4, but I believe we came up with the answer.
The problem is that they appealed to the 3rd base ump. He DID NOT see the play, as he went out to left field to check if the ball was caught or trapped. In this situation, it is the home plate umpire's responsibility to line himself up with 3rd base and the caught ball, precisely to see if the runner left early or not. When you appeal to an ump who did not see the play, the correct mechanic is for him to do nothing. A "safe" sign implies that he saw that the runner did not leave early. If he does nothing, it implies he doesn't know. Maybe, the Pirates thought that meant he was safe, and left it at that. What they should have done, is then appealed to the home plate umpire, who was the ump who had that call. He then would have given the safe or out call.
June 15th, 2011 at 1:24 am
How do they appeal to the home plate ump? They appealed *at* third base. I don't know that they appealed *to* a particular ump. Should they have said to the home ump "WE'RE APPEALING, WAY OVER HERE"? If so, this really seems to be a needlessly complicated rule. The ump didn't see the play. OK, well the defense didn't see which ump(s) saw the the play. It can't seriously be their job to watch all the umps and know who covered/observed which bases. If the appeal was properly made (and this thread is so muddled, I have no idea if that's true), the ump that saw the play (if there was one) should make the damn call. It's baseball, not bureaucracy.
June 15th, 2011 at 2:29 am
The question really comes down to this: Did the HP umpire make a safe call on the appeal? If he did, the book can be closed, because a call was made by the umpire responsible for making the call. If he didn't, then we're right back where we started from.
@65 since the replay doesn't, as you said, show the HP ump making a safe call, how do you know he did? Or are you speculating? Can someone with MLB TV check the archives and listen to what the other announcers said? Maybe that will give us some more clues.
June 15th, 2011 at 12:02 pm
"How do they appeal to the home plate ump?"
"They", meaning the Pirates, do not.
When an umpire leaves his position to make a call, it is the responsibility of the others to cover his position.
"It can't seriously be their job to watch all the umps and know who covered/observed which bases."
It's a structured process, Johnny, sort of like how players rotate positions in volleyball. Which umpire covers which based is determined by the situation and the play itself. In this particular case, the second base ump couldn't move because there was a runner on first and with a ball hit to the OF there was the potential of a play at second.
So, the home plate umpire would rotate up far enough to see the tag itself, but not so far as to impact a potential play at the plate. In the video, he didn't actually move, so, in reality, HE was the umpire responsible and the one who ultimately was out of position.
As far as the appeal itself goes, you're right, you appeal to the base, which includes the assigned umpire. If he makes what you believe to be the wrong call, or in this case, no call, it's up to the defensive team to ask HIM to appeal for help from another umpire, you can't do it yourself.
What I now find interesting about this thread is 100+ comments have been written talking and opinionating about a rule infraction which didn't exist. And yet, in the same game Jose Reyes WAS involved in aplay WITH a rarely enforced rule infraction and that play hasn't been mentioned once.
June 15th, 2011 at 12:34 pm
Not that any of you are wrong (plus I didnt read all 105 comments)!
But I have a friend who is an umpire and Ive asked his assistance.
I'll check back when he does.
June 15th, 2011 at 12:45 pm
I know alot about the rules of baseball and here is my interpretation of the play....
First off, I dont think the ball was caught. I think it was trapped. But the ump called the Reyes out, so he's out!
Duda is out because he didnt tag.
NOW, Tejada may or may not have tagged, but an appeal can only happen when time has been called or the ball is ruled dead by the ump. I dont see that time was ever called. When the ball is live, any player can tag the base to double up any runner that did not properly tag.
So 1 of 2 things happened, either Tejada did tag in the eyes of the third base ump and therefore was not out when they tagged third... OR... time WAS called and the ump did not acknowledge the appeal because it was not initiated by the pitcher.
June 15th, 2011 at 12:57 pm
@107 I think the big question is, why no call from any umpire? Hernandez the announcer wonders aloud why no call, and I assume he'd be able to see both the 3rd base and the plate ump. I didn't see a time call, and don't think there was one. Once the runner on third crossed the plate a new standard was set for appeals, I think it's clear. There would have to be a formal appeal! Someone mentioned a walk-off game winning hit, and from what I can see in the rules there is nothing preventing the fielding team from doing an appeal under those circumstances as long as they did not leave the field. And by appeal I mean a formal, to the rubber appeal even after the game was won by the hitting team. The umpires do not exit the playing field until the fielding team has left.
June 15th, 2011 at 2:52 pm
Here is what my Ump friend said......
I agree with post number 101 as the reason for no call. As long as the ball is alive an appeal can be made bu simply touching the base, in fact that is what they did to double up the runner at 1st. You only need to have the pitcher step on the rubber after a dead ball in order to make the ball live before the appeal. And this only applies to OBR for high schools you can appeal at anytime by just saying he left early, whether the ball is dead or alive. You will see at the end of the video clip that the 3rd base ump goes out on the ball to make the catch/no catch call. There is no way he can watch to see if the runner leaves early. In 4 man mechanics the Plate Ump now has the appeal call. I think no call was made because the fielder was appealing to the wrong ump. However, I do not see what the PU would not make a call when he touches the base. I have posted on my umpire message board and I will see what the other guys think.
June 15th, 2011 at 3:15 pm
@98
I was also tempted to use the rules language on Wikipedia, which is much more user-friendly than the official language of the MLB rules on MLB.com. I didn't, though, because of one huge problem: Who wrote that stuff, which is paraphrase and interpretation, and how do we know that it's accurate?
John,
I agree with your point on wiki, but submit that the play occurred exactly as rule 7.10 is written. The non-call made by the umpire at third is confirmation that the play made to double up Duda nullified the appeal at third. Even an attempted play nullifies the appeal.
If Pittsburgh had taken the throw from left field, ignored Duda, and made an appeal at third, the umpire would have made a call on the appeal. Whether the call was out or safe is moot. The point of contention is, why was the appeal not allowed? Answer, read rule 7.10.
Read rule 7.10 a. Then later on,
"Any appeal under this rule must be made before the next pitch, or any play or attempted play."
I think it's exactly on point.
June 15th, 2011 at 3:48 pm
@108, Les Scan -- Thanks for bringing some "blue" into the discussion!
June 15th, 2011 at 3:53 pm
It seems there is still contention about whether the appeal was legally made.
If it was legally made, there seems to be agreement it was the home plate umpire's call. If I'm reading Chuck's 104 correctly, he's saying once the third base umpire makes no call, the team defensive then has to ask him to check with the other umps. As I said, that seems unnecessarily bureaucratic. The defense thinks there is an appealable play, and they make the appeal. The umps, plural, should then make the call. The defense shouldn't have to poll each umpire individually, fill out forms in triplicate, or whatever.
June 15th, 2011 at 4:08 pm
Johnny Twisto Says:
June 15th, 2011 at 3:53 pm
It seems there is still contention about whether the appeal was legally made.
No appeal was possible because the Pirates made the play on Duda. That's why the umpire made no sign at third. To me that's the giveaway. There was nothing to appeal.
Notice the Pirates didn't protest much. You can see the umpire talking to the third base coach. He probably explained that the play was over.
June 15th, 2011 at 4:19 pm
Johnny...batter checks his swing, catcher asks the home plate umpire to check with the third base umpire, who calls a strike.
Why?
Because the home plate umpire is behind the batter and can't see whether the bat broke the front of the plate.
The catcher doesn't ask the third base umpire, he asks the plate umpire, because balls and strikes are his responsibility.
Same concept applies here.
Players and managers understand the hierarchy of who to ask and when; because this, too, is in the rule book.
Rich @ #109..Rule 7.10 (a) as you described pertains to a dead ball appeal.
June 15th, 2011 at 6:06 pm
No appeal was possible because the Pirates made the play on Duda.
OK, but then could they have made a dead-ball appeal?
Sorry if I seem dense, I feel dense, but this thread is so cluttered with conflicting statements I don't know which are misinformation. Our umpire friends a few posts up don't seem to agree.
The catcher doesn't ask the third base umpire, he asks the plate umpire, because balls and strikes are his responsibility.
Fair enough, but in this case, the call was also the home plate umpire's responsibility, due to the rotations. At #104 you said "you appeal to the base, which includes the assigned umpire." But it doesn't, the assigned umpire is at home. What am I missing here? The Pirates aren't keeping track of ump rotations, so you are saying (I think) that if no call is made by the nearest ump, they should ask that ump to check with whoever saw the play. Is that right? Do they have to specify which ump to check with (which they may not know)?
June 15th, 2011 at 9:08 pm
Chuck @ post 113. Johnny @ post 114.
There really isn't such a thing as a dead ball appeal. Appeals can only be made with a live ball. The situation where the pitcher goes to the rubber is to accommodate the ball becoming dead on the play. A perfect example is a one hopper ground rule double where the runner misses first. The ball is dead upon leaving the field. Subsequently when the umpire signals "play" the pitcher steps off and throws to first for the appeal. The ball is live.
Rule 7.10 applies perfectly. See this quote
Any appeal under this rule must be made before the next pitch, or any play or attempted play. If the violation occurs during a play which ends a half-inning, the appeal must be made before the defensive team leaves the field.
Note "any play or attempted play". This clearly indicates a live ball situation and completely explains the video. The act of (a play) throwing out Duda wipes out any appeal by rule. It completely explains why the umpire showed no sign when the ball was thrown to third. He could not make any sign because doing so would indicate a viable appeal where none existed.
I think we should acknowledge that the umpires know the rules and applied them perfectly in this case.
June 15th, 2011 at 10:16 pm
@115, RichW -- I respectfully disagree that the play on Duda negated the possibility of an appeal at 3rd base.
Reiterating the language of Rule 7.10, after paragraph (d):
"Any appeal under this rule must be made before the next pitch, or any play or attempted play.
"An appeal is not to be interpreted as a play or an attempted play."
I maintain that the play on Duda at 1st base was an appeal, per Rule 7.08. Therefore, it does not qualify as a "play or attempted play" -- and thus it does not preclude the ensuing appeal at 3rd base.
FWIW, my own current conclusion about what happened on that play is that -- as someone suggested above -- the play became dead de facto once Duda was retired, with Tejada having already crossed the plate. If so, then the Pirates would have had to go through the process of making the ball "live" again (i.e., pitcher toes the rubber with the ball) before making the appeal at 3rd.
June 16th, 2011 at 10:43 am
"I think we should acknowledge that the umpires know the rules and applied them perfectly in this case."
That was made clear about 70 posts ago.
Although, apparently, not clearly enough.
"the play became dead de facto"
No such thing, John.
June 16th, 2011 at 10:52 am
Johnny @ #114
"Fair enough, but in this case, the call was also the home plate umpire's responsibility, due to the rotations. At #104 you said "you appeal to the base, which includes the assigned umpire." But it doesn't, the assigned umpire is at home. What am I missing here?"
"Assigned umpire" means the the third base umpire, because the appeal was at third. The fact the umpire made no call is the indicator to the Pirates they needed to ask him for assistance, and at that point the 3B ump has the option to ask another umpire for assistance.
"The Pirates aren't keeping track of ump rotations, so you are saying (I think) that if no call is made by the nearest ump, they should ask that ump to check with whoever saw the play. Is that right?"
That's exactly right.
"Do they have to specify which ump to check with (which they may not know)?"
No. They can ask for multiple opinions, but the umpires themselves know who is supposed to be where, and when.
So, if the HP ump says he also didn't see the play, then the Pirates could ask him to check with another and so on.
June 16th, 2011 at 10:57 am
FYI....
Rule 9.02 (c);
If a decision is appealed, the umpire making the decision may ask another umpire for information before making a final decision. No umpire shall criticize, seek to reverse or interfere with another umpire’s decision unless asked to do so by theumpire making it. If the umpires consult after a play and change a call that had been made, then they have the authority to take all steps that they may deem necessary, in their discretion, to eliminate the results and consequences of the earlier call that they are reversing, including placing runners where they think those runners would have been after the play, had the ultimate call been made as the initial call, disregarding interference or obstruction that may have occurred on the
play; failures of runners to tag up based upon the initial call on the field; runners passing other runners or missing bases; etc., all in the discretion of the umpires. Non player, manager or coach shall be permitted to argue the exercise of the umpires’ discretion in resolving the play and any person so arguing shall be subject to ejection."
A portion of Rule 9.05
"...Keep your eye everlastingly on the ball while it is in play. It is more vital to know just where a fly ball fell, or a thrown ball finished up, than whether or not a runner missed a base. Do not call the plays too quickly, or turn away too fast when a fielder is throwing to complete a double play. Watch out for
dropped balls after you have called a man out. Do not come running with your arm up or down, denoting “out” or “safe.” Wait until the play is completed before making any arm motion.
Each umpire team should work out a simple set of signals, so the proper umpire can always right a manifestly wrong decision when convinced he has made an error. If sure you got the play correctly, do not be stampeded by players’ appeals to “ask the other man.” If not sure, ask one of your associates. Do not carry this to extremes, be alert and get your own plays. But remember! The first requisite is to get decisions correctly. If in doubt don’t hesitate to consult your associate. Umpire dignity is important but
never as important as “being right.”
June 16th, 2011 at 11:50 am
@117 --
[John A:] "the play became dead de facto once Duda was retired...."
[Chuck:] "No such thing, John."
Chuck, do you mean that the ball was still "live" after the play on Duda and continuing to the "appeal" at 3rd base? If so, please explain the following:
-- When the defense records an out that does not end the inning but leaves no runners on base, the next batter in the order comes to the plate.
-- At some point in that interval, the ball must be "dead," because the pitcher isn't allowed to deliver a legal pitch until the batter is in the box and ready.
-- So, what is the process by which the ball becomes dead after that out is recorded? Must the defense ask for and receive "time" from the umpire; does the umpire call "time" independently; or is it merely understood that the ball is dead until the next batter is set in the box and the ump issues the "play" signal?
June 16th, 2011 at 12:30 pm
"So, what is the process by which the ball becomes dead after that out is recorded? Must the defense ask for and receive "time" from the umpire;"
Yes.
"does the umpire call "time" independently;"
He can, but only in certain situations, like a fan running on the field, or to signal a weather delay, or when a manager or player argues a play, or for an injury to a player or another umpire. But there is no arbitrary calling of time.
"or is it merely understood that the ball is dead until the next batter is set in the box and the ump issues the "play" signal?"
The ball is not automatically dead after an out.
"-- At some point in that interval, the ball must be "dead," because the pitcher isn't allowed to deliver a legal pitch until the batter is in the box and ready."
That's true, but the ball is still live.
When following a dead ball play, however, such as a homer, once the pitcher has received the new ball from the ump AND toes the rubber, the ball becomes live, sometimes the umpire will signal with his hand "play", sometimes he just points to the batter. The batter DOES NOT have to be in the batter's box for the ball to become live. (Rule 5.11)
June 17th, 2011 at 3:06 pm
I've posted this on my blog,which is mainly visited by umpires, with links back to here. Hopefully someone else will chime in.
Here's the blog post in case people reply on the comments there: http://rulebookguru.blogspot.com/2011/06/what-happened-here.html
June 17th, 2011 at 6:44 pm
I'm disappointed Cabriael(?) hasn't chimed in here.
June 19th, 2011 at 2:38 am
There was a play a few years back where Ron LeFlore went from first to third on a single. Before the first pitch to the next batter, he attempted to steal home, and was thrown out. When asked why, he stated that he had missed second base and would have been out on appeal. By stealing, the pitcher had to attempt a play at the plate, and thus lost the right to appeal. A 90% out probability was better than a 100% out probability.