100+ BB & RBI With 15 HR Or Less
Posted by Steve Lombardi on December 13, 2010
How many players in baseball history have posted 100+ BB and 100+ RBI in the same season where they also had 15 homeruns or less?
Just two -
| Rk | Yrs | From | To | Age | ||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Bobby Abreu | 1 | 2006 | 2006 | 32-32 | Ind. Seasons |
| 2 | John Olerud | 1 | 2000 | 2000 | 31-31 | Ind. Seasons |
.
So, I guess this makes this something that's pretty hard to do, eh? Heck, move the bar to 20 HR (or less) and it's still not a large group:
| Rk | Yrs | From | To | Age | ||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Bobby Abreu | 2 | 2003 | 2006 | 29-32 | Ind. Seasons |
| 2 | John Olerud | 1 | 2000 | 2000 | 31-31 | Ind. Seasons |
| 3 | Darrell Porter | 1 | 1979 | 1979 | 27-27 | Ind. Seasons |
| 4 | Elbie Fletcher | 1 | 1940 | 1940 | 24-24 | Ind. Seasons |
| 5 | Charlie Gehringer | 1 | 1938 | 1938 | 35-35 | Ind. Seasons |
| 6 | Lou Gehrig | 1 | 1926 | 1926 | 23-23 | Ind. Seasons |
.
Never been done by a right-handed batter? Apparently so...
December 13th, 2010 at 10:03 am
Wonder what the lowest HR number for such a season is among RH batters...
December 13th, 2010 at 10:14 am
Dick Dietz with 22 in 1970. RH batters have produced ten seasons with 100+ BBs, 100+ RBI and fewer than 30 HRS - four by Edgar Martinez.
http://bbref.com/pi/shareit/9fIV2
December 13th, 2010 at 10:38 am
The surprising thing to me is that only three of the seven seasons in the latter list had 100 runs scored. With the exception of Darrell Porter (who squeaked in with 101), it's not been done since Gehringer's '38.
(And Elbie Fletcher had a .419 OBA over three seasons as a regular with the Pirates in '40-'42 and didn't clear 100 runs once. The mind boggles. Has anyone else ever done something like that?)
December 13th, 2010 at 11:04 am
These results don't surprise me. Its hard to get RBI's when so many of your plate appearances are walks. It means more of your hits need to be "big hits". Take away the biggest of big hits (HR's) and you end up with a very eclectic collection of player seasons. Mainly high-2B/low-HR guys.
Elbie Fletcher sticks out as an oddball amongst those even... he only had 22 doubles. The guys batting in front of him (Vaughan, Elliott) had a lot of doubles and triples, though, and collectively the Pirates led the NL in OBP and 2B's, were second in 3B's but only 6th in HR's. So there were probably a lot of runners in scoring position for Fletcher's PA's.
December 13th, 2010 at 11:05 am
"How many players in baseball history have posted 100+ BB and 100+ RBI in the same season where they also had 15 homeruns or less?"
Is this limited to the "modern era", starting in 1901? - because these players would qualify:
CAP ANSON, 1890:.. 113 BB/107 RBI/ 7 HR
JOE KELLY,1894:..... 107 BB/ 111 RBI/ 6 HR
also, if 100+ RBI means "100 or more":
CUPID CHILDS, 1896: 100 BB/106 RBI/1 HR
(Dan Brouthers was very close in 1890)
December 13th, 2010 at 11:21 am
At first glance, this seemed like the perfect Keith Hernandez search.
Hernandez came close 4 times:
1979: 105 RBI/80 BB/11 HR
1980: 99 RBI/86 BB/16 HR
1982: 94 RBI/100 BB/7 HR
1984: 94 RBI/97 BB/15 HR
Hernandez actually had 6 seasons of 80+RBI/80+BB/<20HR
December 13th, 2010 at 11:52 am
You know that we're all going to be obsessed with Elbie Fletcher for the next 3 months, right?
December 13th, 2010 at 1:23 pm
Elbie Fletcher had a .419 OBA over three seasons as a regular with the Pirates in '40-'42 and didn't clear 100 runs once. The mind boggles. Has anyone else ever done something like that?
Believe it or not, Ferris Fain did this seven seasons in a row.
December 13th, 2010 at 1:55 pm
@ Paul Drye and Kahuna-
In '86 Tim Raines led the NL in BA (.334) & OBP .(413). He was on base 276 times, with 35 doubles, 10 triples and an amazing 70 SB (with an even more impressive 9 CS).
With only 91 Rs, minus his 9 HRs, leaving him 82 runs scored. This from a guy batting leadoff as well.
December 13th, 2010 at 4:14 pm
Duke, That is why they put Dawson in the HoF and not that crummy Raines.
December 13th, 2010 at 4:18 pm
Raines in '86 actually spent only about half the season in the leadoff spot: 70 G 328 PA batting first, 75 G 326 PA batting third.
December 13th, 2010 at 4:59 pm
Abreu actually has 5 seasons of =100 RBIs, the 6 post liveball era guys ahead of him are all from the late 20's early 30's. The only recent player near the top of the list besides Bobby is Rusty Greer.
December 13th, 2010 at 5:28 pm
Following up on the Elbie Fletcher / Tim Raines theme --
The main reason Raines scored "just" 91 runs in '86 is that (a) he spent slightly more time hitting 3rd than 1st, and (b) Montreal's #5-#8 hitters were awful -- three of the four spots batted .235 or less, and all had OPS below .700.
Whether hitting 1st or 3rd, Raines scored at a higher rate than the other Expos who batted in those spots:
-- Leading off, Raines scored 47 runs in 70 games, a pace of 109 runs per 162 games. In Montreal's other 92 games, their leadoff hitters scored 48 runs, a pace of 85 runs per 162 games.
-- Batting 3rd, Raines scored 44 runs in 75 games, a pace of 95 runs per 162 games. Other Expos #3 hitters scored 48 runs in 87 games, a pace of 89 runs per 162 games.
Even with "just" 91 runs, Raines tied for 8th in the NL that year; only 2 players scored 100 runs.
It's true that Fletcher never reached 100 runs from 1940-43 despite a composite .413 OBP, but he was in the league's top 10 each year. In 1940, Fletcher batted mostly in the #5 spot, which was a big reason that the Pirates (who led the NL in scoring) got league highs of 98 runs out of the #5 spot (8 more than any other NL team), 110 RBI from #6 (25 more) and 95 RBI from #7 (19 more).
In each of 1940-43, Fletcher spent the majority of his games hitting 5th or 6th. Pittsburgh's scoring attack declined sharply after 1940; in '42, the Bucs scored just 585 runs, so Fletcher's 86 represents nearly 15% of the team total. Fletcher led the team in runs by a good margin in each of 1941-43.
December 13th, 2010 at 5:53 pm
While following the tail end of Elbie Fletcher's career, I came across the 1948 Minneapolis Millers, the walking-est team I've ever seen.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/team.cgi?id=25137
In 154 games, the AAA Millers drew 827 walks, almost 5.4 walks per game. They led the league by 103 walks. Six regulars had OBPs over .400, with walkmeister Frank Genovese tops at .511.
The 33-year-old Genovese drew 105 walks in 353 PAs. It was the 3rd time in 5 years in the American Association that he topped 100 walks, and he had a 5-year run with OBP at least .413. But he was reduced to class B the following year, his last as a pro; he never played in the majors.
December 13th, 2010 at 5:58 pm
As noticed in the thread from 2 days ago, Zeke Bonura had a year with 12 home runs, 138 rbi's, and 94 walks. 6 more walks and he would have the major standout year for this list.
Instead of reducing the HR'r required, it would be interesting to see the same 100rbi's, with a lower amount of walks required, such as 85.
December 13th, 2010 at 6:26 pm
Gehrig had 16 homers but also 47 doubles, 20 triples and 135 runs scored.
The 16 homers placed him 6th, Al Simmons came in 2nd with 19. Ruth had a few more than that--47.
December 13th, 2010 at 9:21 pm
Who's the only player ever with 75+ RBI, 75+ BB and nary a HR?
(This was a familiar trivia question not so very long ago....)
December 13th, 2010 at 10:09 pm
@17 - Ozzie Smith 1987 - 0 HR, 75 RBI, 89 BB; .303/.392/.383, 2nd in MVP voting, and of course a Gold Glove.
December 13th, 2010 at 10:16 pm
And a 13-year career! Frank Genovese for the Hall of Fame!
Sorry, I just really miss that Buzz Arlett-supportin' dude.
December 13th, 2010 at 10:27 pm
In 1987, Ozzie Smith mainly batted 2nd. The Cardinals leadoff hitters (who were primarily Vince Coleman) had an OBP of .350, 117 SB and 23 CS. That helped Ozzie get those 75+ RBIs.
Coleman himself was 109/22 with a .364 OBP
December 13th, 2010 at 11:26 pm
@13 John Austin,
Good point about Raines in '86. You really have to wonder what the hell was going through Buck Rodgers mind on the '86 Expos. Raines led the league in batting average and on-base percentage with a .334/.421 and then he replaces him in the lead-off spot with Casey Candaele, Wallace Johnson, Luis Rivera, and Tom Foley.
December 13th, 2010 at 11:48 pm
@21
I'm guess what went through his head was "holy cow! Rock is hitting for power! I'd better move him to an RBI spot." I mean, how often does a guy lead in SLG and OBP and bat leadoff? Usually, they're 3 or 4 hitters, like Williams, Bonds, McGwire, Ruth, etc. So I'm guessing that was the rationale.
December 14th, 2010 at 12:12 am
This immediately made me think of Tommy Herr's 1985 line. Alas, only 80 walks that year.
December 14th, 2010 at 7:06 am
Roger Connor has some near misses. Several, actually.
1889: 13 homers, 130 rbi's, 93 walks.
1890: 14 homers, 103 rbi's 88 walks
1893: 11 homers, 105 rbi's, 91 walks
1891 was a weaker version: 7 homers, 94 rbi's, 83 walks
December 14th, 2010 at 12:08 pm
For the record, the answer to the question posed @17 was indeed Ozzie Smith, as noted by ToddWE.
Ozzie finished a strong 2nd to Andre Dawson in the '87 MVP race, garnerint 9 first-place votes to Dawson's 11. Jack Clark got 3 first-place votes on the strength of his 136-walks-in-131-games performance. (Tim Wallach got one first-place vote, for reasons known only to that voter. I mean, Tim had a fine year and all, but how can you be MVP if you're not even close to the best player on your own team?)
December 14th, 2010 at 4:25 pm
The '87 voting looks terrible, especially the NL Cy Young.
December 15th, 2010 at 12:26 am
I had to check out Lu Blue to see if he ever made the cut (he was a 1920's version of the Mark Grace mold of first basemen carried to the extreme). The closest he ever came was 1925 with 94 RBI's, 84 walks and a resounding 3 home runs. He never did drive in 100's runs but he walked over 100 times in 4 seasons and over 90 in 2 more and his highest HR total was 14 in 1928, the only season in which he hit more than 6. In his 12 year career he did score more than 80 runs 10 times.
December 15th, 2010 at 12:46 am
Jimbo @ 26
"The '87 voting looks terrible, especially the NL Cy Young."
It's maybe slightly worse than the MVP votes in both leagues but not by much. It's just astonishing how little some baseball writers (who are the voters for all the yearly awards and Hall of Fame) actually know about baseball and what it takes to win. A couple of groups of random 12 year old baseball fans would have done a better job.
December 15th, 2010 at 6:42 am
Elbie Fletcher outta Milton MA.
Made his major league debut with the Boston Braves at age 18, the same year that aging Babe Ruth, played there having been dropped by the Yankees,
. “We were all awed by his presence,” said Fletcher. “He still had that marvelous swing, and what a beautiful follow-through! But he was 40 years old. He couldn’t hit the way he used to. It was sad watching those great skills fade away.”
Once hit an inside-the-park grand slam home run, and twice helped execute a triple play
December 15th, 2010 at 12:16 pm
Hartvig -- Nice Lu Blue mention.
-- For several years, Blue held the record for most walks (127) with 1 HR or less; later broken by (of course) Eddie Stanky.
-- Blue was the first modern player to draw 100+ walks in his very first year in the majors; since joined by Ted Williams and Junior Gilliam.
-- There have been 8 first basemen with at least 5,000 PAs and a career OBP of at least .400. The top 7 slugging averages range from .632 to .524 ... Blue slugged .401.
December 18th, 2010 at 5:19 pm
wow this is a really great post, i just bookmarked the site. Thanks.
December 23rd, 2010 at 1:05 am
Cap Anson.
1890.
7 homers, 107 rbi's, 113 walks.
Right Handed.
December 23rd, 2010 at 10:16 am
That season by Anson is intriguing. I thought he would have hit for a very high average and had lots of doubles and triples. In 139 games he had 157 hits while compiling a .312 AVG (does not seem super high). But only 14 2Bs and 5 3Bs, both very low totals for him. His previous high in walks was 86 and he never got more than 75 BBs after 1890.
My first guess as to why he was able to drive in 107 runs is that he had guys getting on base alot ahead of him who stole alot of bases. Here are 4 candidates for that
Burns .348, 44 SBs
Carroll .352, 34 SBs
Cooney .360, 45 SBs
Wilmot .353, 76 SBs
Maybe some or all of these guys batted ahead of him. But they probably got thrown out alot trying to steal in those days, so that would hurt his chances for RBIs. One thing that might offset that is the large number of erros that were made in those days. The average NL team in 1890 made over 400 errors in 130 or so games. That would put alot of runners on base and move alot of runners into scoring position as would the average of more than 60 passed balls per team and 60 wild pitches.
I wonder if Anson had an especially high AVG with RISP that year.