Ivan Rodriguez and more GIDP than BB
Posted by Andy on November 24, 2010
Reader Joseph T. sent in this great nugget (along with a bunch of others that I'll try to write up in the coming weeks):
Ivan Rodriguez just finished his 6th season with more times grounding into a double play than walks. Click through for more.
| Rk | Yrs | From | To | Age | ||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Ivan Rodriguez | 6 | 1991 | 2010 | 19-38 | Ind. Seasons |
| 2 | Hal Lanier | 5 | 1964 | 1972 | 21-29 | Ind. Seasons |
| 3 | Andres Thomas | 4 | 1985 | 1989 | 21-25 | Ind. Seasons |
| 4 | Rob Picciolo | 4 | 1979 | 1984 | 26-31 | Ind. Seasons |
| 5 | Damaso Garcia | 4 | 1979 | 1988 | 22-31 | Ind. Seasons |
| 6 | Jesus Alou | 4 | 1963 | 1968 | 21-26 | Ind. Seasons |
That list, aside from Rodriguez, is a Who's Who of some of the lesser offensive players who got regular playing time.
In fact, Rodriguez has by far the most plate appearances of all players with at least 60% as many GIDP as BB in their careers:
| Rk | Player | PA | GDP | BB | From | To | Pos |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Ivan Rodriguez | 10133 | 331 | 503 | 1991 | 2010 | *2/D34 |
| 2 | Ernie Lombardi | 6349 | 261 | 430 | 1931 | 1947 | *2 |
| 3 | Manny Sanguillen | 5380 | 144 | 223 | 1967 | 1980 | *2/9D37 |
| 4 | A.J. Pierzynski | 5207 | 155 | 207 | 1998 | 2010 | *2/D |
| 5 | Bengie Molina | 5159 | 173 | 208 | 1998 | 2010 | *2/D |
| 6 | Ken Reitz | 5079 | 157 | 184 | 1972 | 1982 | *5/64 |
| 7 | Sandy Alomar | 4865 | 132 | 212 | 1988 | 2007 | *2/D3 |
| 8 | Danny Cater | 4785 | 160 | 254 | 1964 | 1975 | *375/9D48 |
| 9 | Deivi Cruz | 4375 | 117 | 132 | 1997 | 2005 | *6/45D3 |
| 10 | Jerry Adair | 4315 | 149 | 208 | 1958 | 1970 | *46/53 |
| 11 | Damaso Garcia | 4124 | 82 | 130 | 1978 | 1989 | *4/6D53 |
| 12 | Doug Flynn | 4085 | 95 | 151 | 1975 | 1985 | *46/5 |
| 13 | Gary Disarcina | 4032 | 105 | 154 | 1989 | 2000 | *6/45 |
| 14 | Hal Lanier | 3940 | 135 | 136 | 1964 | 1973 | *645/3 |
| 15 | Robinson Cano | 3732 | 113 | 186 | 2005 | 2010 | *4/D |
| 16 | Jose Lopez | 3599 | 98 | 134 | 2004 | 2010 | *45/63D |
| 17 | John Bateman | 3585 | 123 | 172 | 1963 | 1972 | *2 |
| 18 | Pat Meares | 3560 | 94 | 150 | 1993 | 2001 | *6/489 |
| 19 | Pat Borders | 3499 | 94 | 155 | 1988 | 2005 | *2/D543 |
| 20 | Brian Harper | 3386 | 107 | 133 | 1979 | 1995 | *2/7D953 |
Lotsa catchers...
November 24th, 2010 at 8:48 am
Next year Pudge may pass Cal as the all-time leader in GIDP
November 24th, 2010 at 9:55 am
I think the second list (career totals) is more indicative of guys that don't walk a lot than it is guys that hit into the most DPs (meaning is seems more likely for a guy on the list to have a somewhat normal DP rate and a low walk rate, than vise versa). Doing eyeball math, only Lombardi and Cater have BB/PA rates higher than 5%.
Although most guys on the list are not too fast, as the "Lotsa catchers" comment concludes.
November 24th, 2010 at 10:30 am
Fun stuff, Andy & Joseph T.
FWIW, my results from the Play Index differ from the list above (GIDP>= 0.6 * BB, sorted by PA). Three players in my top 20 are not in the list above:
-- Jesus Alou at #9, between Cater and Cruz;
-- Shea Hillenbrand between Lanier and Cano; and
-- Mickey Hatcher between Cano and Lopez.
Jesus Alou has the distinction of being the only player with 3000+ PAs and more GIDP than BB. (143 GIDP, 138 BB, ratio of 1.04.) Hal Lanier is the only other player with a GIDP/BB ratio of at least 0.9.
Alou: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/a/alouje01.shtml
My list: http://www.baseball-reference.com/play-index/season_finder.cgi?type=b#gotresults&as=result_batter&offset=0&sum=1&min_year_season=1901&max_year_season=2010&min_season=1&max_season=-1&min_age=0&max_age=99&lg_ID=lgAny&lgAL_team=tmAny&lgNL_team=tmAny&lgFL_team=tmAny&lgAA_team=tmAny&lgPL_team=tmAny&lgUA_team=tmAny&lgNA_team=tmAny&isFA=either&isActive=either&isHOF=either&isAllstar=either&bats=any&throws=any&exactness=anypos&games_prop=50&games_tot=&pos_1=1&pos_2=1&pos_3=1&pos_4=1&pos_5=1&pos_6=1&pos_7=1&pos_8=1&pos_9=1&pos_10=1&qualifiersSeason=nomin&minpasValS=502&mingamesValS=100&qualifiersCareer=minpas&minpasValC=3000&mingamesValC=1000&orderby=PA&c1criteria=&c1gtlt=eq&c1val=0&c2criteria=&c2gtlt=eq&c2val=0&c3criteria=&c3gtlt=eq&c3val=0&c4criteria=&c4gtlt=eq&c4val=0&c5criteria=GIDP&c5gtlt=gt&c5val=.6&c6criteria=BB&location=pob&locationMatch=is&pob=&pod=&pcanada=&pusa=&ajax=1&submitter=1
November 24th, 2010 at 10:50 am
BTW, Ernie Lombardi and Ron Coomer are the only players with GIDP >= 4% of PAs.
P.S. Jesus Alou must be one of the worst players ever to have a long career. He played in 15 seasons and was a regular for 8, despite:
-- .305 OBP.
-- No power: .353 SLG, .073 ISO.
-- No speed: 40% SB rate (31 SB, 46 CS) and 19 GIDP per 600 PA.
-- No discernible sign of defensive prowess.
Starting Jesus Alou at a corner OF position arguably cost the Giants the 1966 pennant. They finished 1.5 games behind LA; in 110 games & 387 PA, Alou had a WAR of minus-1.9, a .279 OBP and 61 OPS+, with 15 XBH and 14 GIDP.
November 24th, 2010 at 11:14 am
Like you said, lotsa catchers. Plus some historically slow players such as Ken Reitz. I am surprised at the middle infielders on this list, although all of them, except one bats right handed. I would expect that Cano, the one left handed hitter on this list, should move off of this unwanted stat in a few years.
November 24th, 2010 at 12:01 pm
First of all, what a hilarious hook! But it's kind of a cheapshot too.
Anyone that's seen Pudge in is day knows what a smart hitter he is. But, like so many Latin players, Pudge is a low walk/high contact type of player. Almost never strikes out, knows how to move a runner up, great situational hitter.
I love having guys like him (and Polanco) on my team, but they do give rise to peculiar statistical anomalies.
November 24th, 2010 at 12:06 pm
# 4 john Austin
I just ran over your post again. How frightening!?! A player who gets more than a bit of time in the majors, and have a double play rate above 4%.
The horror. the horror.
November 24th, 2010 at 12:18 pm
Among the other teams Jesus Alou screwed up were the 69 Astros; in fact I don't believe the outfielders other than Wynn hit more than 10 or 15 home runs that year. Jesus, incidentally, got one Hall of fame vote. He did have a respectable batting average of 280, yet another example of why that stat should be consigned to the dustbin of history.
I believe AJ Pierzinski had a year of DP>BB a few years ago. I believe Don Mueller of the early 50s Giants had several such years. Among the few lefties to accomplish this feat.
November 24th, 2010 at 12:22 pm
Doug Flynn had to be one of the worst players in Major League history. How the heck did that guy get 4000 PA in the big leagues? He couldn't hit for power or for average, he had no on base ability, he grounded into a lot of double plays and he was a below average fielder for most of his career. He had a career negative (-12.1) WAR which is just incredible. And he has two World Series Rings which is just unbelievable.
November 24th, 2010 at 12:45 pm
like so many Latin players, Pudge is a low walk/high contact type of player.
Is there anything to this?
Last season there were 315 US-born players with at least 100 PA. Two of them walked in fewer than 5% of PA and struck out in fewer than 10%.
There were about 114 players from the Caribbean and Latin American with at least 100 PA. Two of them also met the threshold.
That sample is too small to mean much but is a slight indication this stereotype may be true. I don't have time right now; anyone else want to run with it and look at it a different way?
November 24th, 2010 at 12:58 pm
If you're thinking "you can't walk off the island" you owe me $5.
November 24th, 2010 at 1:46 pm
"He did have a respectable batting average of 280, yet another example of why that stat should be consigned to the dustbin of history."
Yes, because the actual record of how often a player hits the ball to get safely on base has no place in a game called baseball.
November 24th, 2010 at 1:56 pm
John Autin's comment #4 above (regarding Jesús Alou's 14 GIDPs and mere 15 XBH for the 1966 Giants) made me wonder, How many (semi-)regular position players have racked up more double plays in a season than extra-base hits?
Here's the list of players who have done it more than once.
Starting Jesus Alou at a corner OF position arguably cost the Giants the 1966 pennant. They finished 1.5 games behind LA; in 110 games & 387 PA, Alou had a WAR of minus-1.9, a .279 OBP and 61 OPS+, with 15 XBH and 14 GIDP.
I'll make the same argument regarding Hal Lanier, wherever the Giants started him, for the 1965, 1966 and 1969 seasons. In '66 and '69 Lanier had more GIDP than XBH (16 to 10 in '69 — ecccch). The Giants finished 2 games out of a playoff spot in 1965, and Lanier had a -1.1 WAR. In 1966, the Giants finished 1.5 games out, and Lanier had a -1.3 WAR. In 1969, the Giants finished 3 games out, and Lanier had a -1.0 WAR. Lanier's OPS+ was 51 or lower in each of these seasons.
November 24th, 2010 at 2:13 pm
#13 Kahuna
More double plays than extra base-hits! How did I not make the majors?
What's next; a pitcher with more HRs than Ks?
Please don't look for that.
November 24th, 2010 at 2:25 pm
#9 John Q,
Here is where I have to disagree with dWAR. As a Met fan who attended many games and saw a bunch on TV in the late 70's early 80's, I have to assure you that Doug Flynn could play second base and play it very well.
November 24th, 2010 at 2:33 pm
@13, Kahuna -- Good point about Lanier. In fact, those '66 Giants, who won 93 games, got really bad production from 7 of their 11 main hitters: 2B Lanier (49 OPS+), OFs Len Gabrielson (51), Jesus Alou (61), Cap Peterson (62) and Ollie Brown (71), SS Tito Fuentes (73), and IF Jim Davenport (83). The productive offense consisted of 4 men -- Mays (149), McCovey (163), Jim Ray Hart (133) and Tom Haller (112).
Those mid-'60s Giants routinely got terrible production from their middle infielders. In '63, it was 2B Chuck Hiller (62) and SS Jose Pagan (67). In '64, Lanier (75) and Pagan (56). In '65, Lanier (51) and Dick Schofield (46). In '66, Lanier (49) and Tito Fuentes (73). In '67, Fuentes (61) and Lanier (42).
In '68, Ron Hunt came along and solved the 2B problem for a while, but Lanier made up for that with one of the worst seasons ever by a qualifying batter -- 38 OPS+ (still the lowest figure since 1953) and .222 OBP (still the lowest mark since 1918), and 17 GIDP; he was so bad that he actually laid down 14 sac bunts while batting 8th.
Hal Lanier has the all-time worst career ratio of GIDP to Extra-Base Hits, 0.97 (135 GIDP, 139 XBH). No one else is over 0.87.
November 24th, 2010 at 2:35 pm
@14, Barkfart --
"What's next; a pitcher with more HRs than Ks? Please don't look for that."
Awwwwwww....
(P.S. You're safe.)
November 24th, 2010 at 2:46 pm
I am guessing the non-catchers hit a higher than normal percentage of ground balls... or maybe not.
November 24th, 2010 at 3:06 pm
@14
I had to look it up and found an unbelievable season. The record for the most innings pitched in a season with more HR's allowed than K's is 74 2/3, by the Red Sox' Ted Wingfield in 1927. The amazing part is that he only allowed 2 HR. He struck out 1 of the 346 batters he faced that year. Ryan Rowland-Smith was about as bad as one could be this year, but he still only allowed half as many HR's as K's.
November 24th, 2010 at 3:09 pm
Thanx Andy,
To pull back the mask and reveal my secret identity, I am Joseph T.
I will now eat my turkey at my in-law's house with half a smile tomorrow.
I just thought those two stats (BBs & GIDPs) are going to be ignored when Pudge's career is looked back on. They are for most players, until recently. Although GIDP has a bit of circumstance involved, I still believe a hitter is partially to blame. Not all Pudge's GIDPs are his fault or lack of speed, I'm sure ten a season could be attributed to things like overaggressiveness, not walking, trying to pull the ball/do to much, etc.
His BBs are just atrocious. He had back to back seasons of 55 & 44 for the Fish and Big Cats respectively, which is 20% of his career total.
Another strange thing; Biggio is ranked 5th on Ivan's similarity score. In 1997 Biggio walked 84 times, was hit by 34 (!) pitches and grounded into 0 DPs. Zero, Zilch, Nada.
Some other nuggets on Pudge:
I-Rod broke his own record by grounding into 10 or more double plays for the 20th straight season.
He also extended his own record by having his 6th season where GIDP > BB. (repeat)
This year became just the 7th player where G > 100 & GIDP > 22.5% G.
Passed Bill Buckner to set the record for most seasons with > 81 G, < 50 BB with 19 seasons. Should get 20 next year if he plays enough.
On a lighter note, if I-rod gets 100 hits next season he ties 1st place (Cobb, Rose, Murray, Brett, Aaron, Yaz) for 20 consecutive seasons at the century mark.
November 24th, 2010 at 4:32 pm
John, re your #16:
"Lanier was the weakest hitter ever to play 1,000 games in the major leagues (except pitchers), but was such a good second baseman that they moved him to shortstop after a couple of years.” New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract, p. 502 (comment on Bill Mazeroski).
On the list of most seasons with more than 400 PA and OPS+ less than or equal to 50, Lanier leads with five (consecutive) such seasons (1966-70), followed by Alfredo Griffin with three seasons and seven other players with two.
What a shame that the Giants couldn’t have scrounged up some decent-hitting middle infielders to go along with Mays, McCovey, Hart, Cepeda and their other strong hitters! In 1971, Mays’ last season as a regular, second baseman Tito Fuentes put up an OPS+ of 86 and rookie shortstop Chris Speier had an 80 OPS+. Their average 83 OPS+ was the highest by a Giants DP combo since the 89.5 average OPS+ posted by Daryl Spencer and Ed Bressoud in 1959. (Chuck Hiller and José Pagán averaged 82 in 1962.) Even Ron Hunt, who put up 102, 99 and 109 OPS+s in his three Giants seasons, couldn’t overcome Lanier’s 38, 46 and 46.
November 24th, 2010 at 5:30 pm
@ Kahuna -
Alfredo Griffin made the 1984 All Star team despite his abysmal 48 OPS+. This from a pretty crowded field of SSs that included Ripken, Trammel, Franco and Yount.
It completely baffles the mind how this happened. He had 4 BBs in 140 G. FOUR. He had a SLG below .300 and an OBP under .250 with 14 extra base hits.
I'm sure there is a better example, but I believe this to be the worst AS selection in history and would love to be proven wrong.
It might actually make a fun thread in its own.
November 24th, 2010 at 7:39 pm
Ground Into Double Play stats only go back to 1933, so let's not get too carried away with the lists here. There may possibly be others who put Irod to shame. Nap Lajoie, Lave Cross, Tommy Corcoran, Stuffy McInnis, Hal Chase all had long careers without many walks, but we don't know their GIDP numbers.
November 24th, 2010 at 9:28 pm
Jesus Alou had 143 GIDP versus 138 BB in ~4577 PA's...he's the all-time leader.
November 24th, 2010 at 11:07 pm
Gerry, It is true that we don't have the individual batting GiDP numbers way back. But we do have team defensive numbers, and they tell us that there were many fewer then than later. NL 1905 average 100 DP's per team. NL 1935 the average was 131. In the deadball era most of the time you got a runner on 1st there would be a play put on; a steal, sac bunt or hit and run. Also I would guess that a much larger % of the DP's in that era were not GiDPs. More would have been runners doubled off and strike em out throw em out DPs. For 19 century players the inferior field conditions and gloves that didn't exist in the 1870's and were small in the 1890's, would have made turning 2 much harder than later.
November 24th, 2010 at 11:34 pm
#19 Lee Tro
I knew when I said it that it was probably true.
What a hilarious/horrific stat you unearthed.
This website kills me.
November 25th, 2010 at 12:23 am
@23, Gerry -- Good point re: GIDP only kept since 1933 -- actually, it seems to be since '33 for the NL and '39 for the AL. This means that Ernie Lombardi is almost certainly the unchallenged all-time GIDP-rate king, at somewhere between 4.5% and 4.7% of PAs, depending on the estimate of his GIDPs in the 2 seasons for which no data were kept.
Even without GIDP data, though, I still think we can be reasonably sure that GIDP rates were much lower in the dead-ball era. For one thing, the style of play was so different -- far more stealing, bunting, hit-and-running. Gloves and fields were much more primitive. Slow runners were rarely tolerated, especially since there was little chance for such players to compensate with slugging.
One thing we do have is GIDP records from the World Series. In 188 WS team-games in the dead-ball era, there were just 58 GIDP, a rate of 0.31 per team-game. That's less than half the WS GIDP rate from 1920 on (0.65).
So I feel pretty confident that no player from the dead-ball era belongs in this discussion. That just leaves the 20 years from 1920-39 for which we have no regular-season GIDP data (or only one league's data). It's possible that some hitters from that period would make the list above, but I doubt that it's more than a couple.
November 25th, 2010 at 12:26 am
@25, Kds -- Well done, you made my point (@27) but more succinctly. Don't know why I didn't think of checking for league GIDP data pre-1933.
November 25th, 2010 at 12:52 am
@19 / @26 --
This doesn't quite make the "HR>SO" grade, but in 1950, Joe Haynes of the Senators had 101.2 IP, 15 Ks and 14 HRs.
This is made even more "impressive" by the general difficulty of hitting a HR in Griffith Stadium; Washington both hit and allowed the fewest HRs in the league, and there were just 46 HRs by both teams in the Senators' home games (129 in road games). Haynes allowed just 2 HRs at home, but in 68.1 road IP, he served up 12 gophers and fanned just 9.
Haynes also had a BB:K ratio over 3 that year -- 46 walks, 15 strikeouts. You don't find that every day; in fact, no pitcher since Haynes has issued 3 times as many walks as Ks in a season of 100+ IP.
Ironically, just 3 years before, Haynes had led the AL with a 2.42 ERA and 150 ERA+ with the White Sox, allowing just 5 HRs in 182 IP.
P.S. Someone could write a good article about how Griffith Stadium utterly stymied HR production, yet was not really a pitcher's park.
November 25th, 2010 at 3:02 am
Gang,
Even all these years later I remember in,Jim Bouton's book he wrote that Doug Rader used to try to make Jesus Alou puke. He walked up to him in the dugout and wiped a booger on Alou's arm. Alou looked at it,horrified,and promptly threw up. Maybe the boogers contributed to him being so bad. Who else remembers that story?
November 25th, 2010 at 11:23 am
John Autin, It certainly is worth looking into DP numbers 1920-1938, but my guess is that they increased only gradually. If you look at the number of sac bunts by the 50 greatest HR hitters in history, you will find Ruth and Gehrig #'s 1 and 2. (Foxx is # 3.) They, of course were among the earliest to hit huge numbers of HR. Ruth started as a pitcher in the deadball era so we can see why he may have been asked to bunt a lot. But Lou's rookie year was 1925 and by 1927 was a power hitting superstar. He was being asked to sacrifice more than 15 times a year. This stopped abruptly in 1931, when Joe McCarthy became the Yankee's manager. It looks like many managers continued to use deadball tactics well into the lively ball era. Thus keeping the DP numbers down.
November 25th, 2010 at 1:58 pm
comments like this make me laugh and cry --
"Jesus, incidentally, got one Hall of fame vote. He did have a respectable batting average of 280, yet another example of why that stat should be consigned to the dustbin of history".
Yeah, lets completely re-write the book and history of baseball so BA never existed. OBP is a better stat, not debatable, but respect history please since this comment has about as much perspective as a bedbug. It's a good stat, it's just there's other stats that are better.
This black and white mentality in today's society is alarming. If somethings better than this, even if it's better by a 51%-49% than put it in a dustbin. Everything has relevance, some more than others.
Freakin' ridiculous.
November 26th, 2010 at 1:15 pm
Not only is I-Rod near to breaking Ripken's record (well, Ripken's other record), but he has about a 37% chance of getting 3,000 hits. Is he the leader among catchers?
November 26th, 2010 at 1:44 pm
@#22
Alfredo Griffin was a fluke selection in 1984. Each player is allowed to bring a guest at MLB's expense (usually a wife or girlfriend) - Damaso Garcia brought his buddy and DP partner - Alfredo Griffin. Alan Trammel injured his arm two days before the game. Griffin was named to replace him - he was already in SF for the game!
November 26th, 2010 at 4:27 pm
Charles, I-Rod may hold more position hitting records than any other player at any other position. Among others, he leads catchers in Games, PA, AB, H, Singles, Doubles, Total Bases, ...
November 26th, 2010 at 5:29 pm
Tacking on to Kds @35:
Rodriguez is so far in front of all other catchers in career Hits -- 345 hits more than Ted Simmons -- that he is even #1 in Times On Base, despite averaging just 30 walks per 600 PAs.
November 26th, 2010 at 5:47 pm
Pop quiz: Name another hitter who holds career position records for PA, AB, Runs, Doubles, HBP and Strikeouts.
(One of the stats I mentioned is a hint....)
P.S. I'm talking about career totals for a player with at least 50% of his games at the position -- not totals for games played only at that position.
November 26th, 2010 at 6:22 pm
You'd think a lifetime of catching might help him recognize pitches but it sure doesn't seem that way..
November 26th, 2010 at 6:57 pm
Pop quiz; Biggio.
November 26th, 2010 at 8:59 pm
@39, Kds -- We have a pop-quiz winner. You can keep what you've won so far, or risk it all on this next question:
A-Rod is poised to become the first player with at least 1,000 career games at both SS and 3B. Who is the only other player with least 1,000 career games at 3B and at the middle infield positions combined (SS & 2B)?
November 26th, 2010 at 10:48 pm
@SaberSteve
"(usually a wife or girlfriend) - Damaso Garcia brought his buddy and DP partner - Alfredo Griffin..."
this has a bit of innuendo to it... San Fran and all.
Just Kidding, but I still wouldn't bring my 'DP PARTNER' to San Fran and not expect a bit of razzing.
@Kds
Great points about lower GIDP rates pre-33. One thing you forgot to mention though, is the ridiculous CS%'s from that era. The 1925 Yankees had 73 CS. The '27 club, one of the best offenses ever, 64 CS. You think Billy Beane could of watched any of those games without having an aneurysm ?
November 27th, 2010 at 12:36 am
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! Rk
! Player
! CS
! BB
! G
! Year
! PA
! IBB
! SO
! HBP
! SH
! GDP
! SB
! Pos
|-
| 1
| Dave Robertson
| 17
| 14
| 150
| 1916
| 620
| 0
| 56
| 3
| 16
| 0
| 21
| *9
|-
| 2
| Garry Templeton
| 24
| 15
| 153
| 1977
| 644
| 3
| 70
| 1
| 2
| 9
| 28
| *6
|-
| 3
| Shawon Dunston
| 4
| 2
| 104
| 1999
| 255
| 0
| 39
| 5
| 3
| 8
| 10
| 87/9365D
|-
| 4
| Damaso Garcia
| 13
| 12
| 140
| 1980
| 565
| 2
| 55
| 3
| 4
| 14
| 13
| *4/D
|-
| 5
| Bob Fisher
| 16
| 10
| 132
| 1913
| 501
| 0
| 43
| 1
| 16
| 0
| 16
| *6
|-
| 6
| Hal Chase
| 22
| 17
| 131
| 1912
| 566
| 0
| 0
| 2
| 25
| 0
| 33
| *3/4
|-
| 7
| Ozzie Guillen
| 15
| 11
| 154
| 1991
| 555
| 1
| 38
| 0
| 13
| 7
| 21
| *6
|-
| 8
| Otis Nixon
| 11
| 8
| 104
| 1985
| 174
| 0
| 27
| 0
| 4
| 2
| 20
| *78/D
|-
| 9
| Art Fletcher
| 18
| 6
| 149
| 1915
| 599
| 0
| 36
| 14
| 17
| 0
| 12
| *6
|-
| 10
| Bert Griffith
| 7
| 5
| 106
| 1922
| 344
| 0
| 11
| 2
| 12
| 0
| 5
| *9/83
|-
| 11
| Gus Getz
| 15
| 8
| 130
| 1915
| 498
| 0
| 14
| 3
| 10
| 0
| 19
| *5/6
|-
| 12
| Hi Myers
| 22
| 17
| 153
| 1915
| 645
| 0
| 51
| 6
| 17
| 0
| 19
| *8
|-
| 13
| Ozzie Guillen
| 17
| 15
| 155
| 1989
| 626
| 3
| 48
| 0
| 11
| 8
| 36
| *6
|-
| 14
| Mike Edwards
| 21
| 16
| 142
| 1978
| 446
| 0
| 32
| 2
| 14
| 7
| 27
| *4/6
|-
| 15
| Shano Collins
| 9
| 7
| 135
| 1922
| 504
| 0
| 30
| 5
| 20
| 0
| 7
| 987/3
|-
| 16
| Tom Long
| 14
| 10
| 119
| 1916
| 423
| 0
| 43
| 1
| 9
| 0
| 21
| *98/7
|-
| 17
| Buck Weaver
| 20
| 9
| 147
| 1912
| 553
| 0
| 0
| 6
| 15
| 0
| 13
| *6
|-
| 18
| John Leary
| 15
| 10
| 144
| 1914
| 552
| 0
| 71
| 3
| 6
| 0
| 9
| *32
|-
| 19
| Otto Miller
| 12
| 10
| 104
| 1913
| 340
| 0
| 31
| 0
| 10
| 0
| 7
| *2/3
|-
| 20
| George Stovall
| 17
| 14
| 116
| 1912
| 424
| 0
| 0
| 4
| 8
| 0
| 11
| *3
|}{{cite web | title = Baseball-Reference.com: For single seasons, From 1901 to 2010, (requiring CS>=1, BB | url = http://www.baseball-reference.com/play-index/season_finder.cgi?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool | accessdate = 2010-27-11 }}
November 27th, 2010 at 3:06 am
2nd pop quiz. In honor of the Rangers first trip to the WS; hip-hip-horrah for Toby Harrah.
November 27th, 2010 at 7:57 pm
in 1980 Damasco Garcia not only had GIDP>BB but also CS>BB, almost earning the golden sombrero of futility, falling one base short when his SB=CS at 13/13, giv.
I believe Shawon Dunston is the only other position player to accomplish the feat with considerable (100G) playing time.
Also the 1980 Blue Jay DP combo of Garcia/Griffin combined in over 1200 PAs to have 31 SB with 36 CS, 21 GIDP, and 36 BB. basically giving back every 'extra base' the defense allowed them.
November 28th, 2010 at 3:06 am
Bill James, in the Abstracts and the Historical Abstracts talked a lot about secondary bases and secondary average. Secondary bases are the extra bases from extra base hits + BB + SB. Secondary average is secondary bases/AB. Let us modify this a bit by subtracting CS and GIDP. Let us also subtract IBB, since some bad hitters bat 8th before the pitcher and get some IBB's from that situation. So, who has the lowest modified secondary average? (TB-H+BB-IBB+SB-CS)/AB
November 28th, 2010 at 11:06 am
@Kds
Great idea. I really liked Jame's ideas on secondary bases. It mostly confirmed that guys I thought were great, were truly better than the old guard of stats indicated. One name that comes up is Darrel Evans.Great secondary guy.
I'm gonna go looking for (TB-H+BB-IBB+SB-CS)/AB, but I think I'll include HBP & GIDP, which I know is partly out of the batter's control, but only to the same extent as non-intentional walks. I really mean, that to omit HBP would really hurt guys like Biggio and Baylor and Kendel, who clearly have/had that as part of their offensive plan.
November 28th, 2010 at 12:42 pm
Of course include GIDP and HBP, I meant to include them but my fingers didn't type them. Dumb fingers. James had secondary bases/AB to get secondary average. Which isn't logical to have BB divided by AB when a walk is not an AB. I think he did this so that secondary average would approximately equal BA, but with much more variance. So he could directly compare the two averages for a player. We could do it that way but it might be more logical to use PA instead of AB. Giving us; modified secondary average = (TB - H + BB - IBB + HPB - GIDP + SB - CS)/PA. And a partridge in a pear tree. Now I guess I'll have to look up some players for this.
November 28th, 2010 at 1:15 pm
I'll start with a young Gary Templeton. Tons of hits, no power, no walks, lotsa CS, even more attitude.
November 28th, 2010 at 1:20 pm
Dukeofflatbush, I am making another post based on your contributions tomorrow...thanks.
November 28th, 2010 at 3:29 pm
1977 National League
Just a random sample of players with similar Hs & BAs, to illustrate the differences 'secondary bases' made to the individual hitter. I do think however, that CS, is a much bigger disadvantage than a SB is advantageous. I don't know the #s, but I can only imagine starting with a man on first with no outs or one out, the WP or scoring probability is affected more negatively by a CS than positively by a SB. A better example would be to look at the #s below and see that the aggregate of (SB-CS) of Templeton in 4 and Garvey 3. Advantage Templeton. But Templeton created far more outs getting that one extra base over Garvey. 18 outs. So maybe in the future a 2xCS?
H TB BB IBB SB CS HBP GIDP X-BASES BA OBP SLG X-BASE%
Gary Templeton 200 279 15 3 28 24 1 9 87 .322 .336 .449 .135
Dave Parker 215 338 58 13 17 19 7 7 166 .338 .397 .531 .235
George Foster 197 388 61 10 6 4 5 17 232 .320 .382 .631 .336
Steve Garvey 192 322 38 10 9 6 1 15 147 .297 .335 .498 .211
Pete Rose 204 283 66 7 16 4 5 9 146 .311 .377 .432 .200
Joe Morgan 150 249 117 8 49 10 2 5 244 .288 .417 .478 .378