Saving Their Own Wins
Posted by Raphy on July 13, 2010
Over the years, there have been several mentions in the comments section of the blog about pitchers saving their own wins. A commenter would ask what would happen if a pitcher were to switch positions while in line for the win and then later return to the game to close it out. Another commenter would inevitably remind the original that this theoretical scenario would not result in a save because by definition a save can not be awarded to a pitcher who earns a win. Usually, that is that and little time is spent discussing it further. Yesterday's update (which in addition to adding data also cleaned up some of the older data) allows us to find 2 such actual games and no, the pitcher was not awarded a save. (I found these by manually going through the results of a streak finder search for games which a pitcher started and was also awarded a GF.)
June 25, 1953- Billy Pierce started the game and had a 4-2 lead going into the bottom of the ninth. Pierce moved to first base for the first 2 batters of the ninth, before returning to the mound and getting the last 2 outs of the game:
| Pitching | IP | H | R | ER | BB | SO | HR | BF | GSc | IR | IS | WPA | RE24 | ||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Billy Pierce, W (9-3) | 8 | 4 | 2 | 0 | 3 | 4 | 1 | 3.08 | 31 | 69 | 0.435 | 1.28 | 2.5 | ||
| Fritz Dorish, H (5) | 0.1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2.26 | 2 | 0 | 0 | -0.027 | 2.60 | -0.2 | |
| Billy Pierce, W (9-3) | 0.2 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 3.08 | 3 | 69 | 0.435 | 1.28 | 2.5 | ||
| Team Totals | 9 | 5 | 2 | 2 | 4 | 5 | 1 | 2.00 | 36 | 138 | 0 | 0 | 0.843 | 1.38 | 4.9 |
Don't ask me why the earned runs are in Pierce's second line, that's clearly a mistake.
July 6, 1970 - Sam McDowell started the game and led 6-4 when he was switched to 2B(!) for 2 batters (a 2nd and 3rd jam) to end the 8th. McDowell returned to the mound for the 9th and closed out the game.
| Pitching | IP | H | R | ER | BB | SO | HR | BF | GSc | IR | IS | WPA | RE24 | ||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Sam McDowell, W (12-4) | 7.2 | 11 | 4 | 0 | 5 | 12 | 0 | 2.72 | 38 | 56 | 0.005 | 1.31 | -0.2 | ||
| Dean Chance, H (2) | 0.1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 3.83 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 0.102 | 4.31 | 0.6 | |
| Sam McDowell, W (12-4) | 1 | 0 | 0 | 4 | 0 | 3 | 0 | 2.72 | 3 | 56 | 0.005 | 1.31 | -0.2 | ||
| Team Totals | 9 | 11 | 4 | 4 | 6 | 15 | 0 | 4.00 | 43 | 112 | 2 | 0 | 0.112 | 0.80 | 0.1 |
A different type of game from my search that was interesting was this game in 1955. Tom Poholsky was in line for the win, left for 1 batter, when his lead was blown and then ended up earning the win any way.
July 13th, 2010 at 1:40 pm
When was the SV stat introduced?
July 13th, 2010 at 1:42 pm
http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Save
July 13th, 2010 at 2:15 pm
This is an incredibly cool find...great job, Raphy!
July 13th, 2010 at 2:16 pm
Gotcha. So regardless of whether it would have been considered a SV at the time, if it was applied retroactively, it should show up here.
I guess the question is: Does the SV rule explicitly forbid a pitcher from saving his own win? Or is that the interpretation of the rule and how it is being applied?
Also, does the fact that a STATISTIC has a RULE that is open to INTERPRETATION evidence enough that it's not really a stat at all?
July 13th, 2010 at 2:19 pm
I should have done my homework. The rule, as quoted in that link, explicitly forbids the pitcher from recording a SV if he was also the winning pitcher.
However, that begs the question... could they be given the SV in lieu of the win, with the win assigned to someone else? What if I guy swaps out to a position in a tie game, the inning ends, his team takes the lead, and then he comes back in? Has THAT ever happened?
In the McDowell game, since he ended the inning in the field, had it been tied, he would not have been the pitcher of record had his team taken the lead that inning.
Also, no matter what, none of those games were SVOPs because the lead was too big.
July 13th, 2010 at 2:45 pm
#4: "Also, does the fact that a STATISTIC has a RULE that is open to INTERPRETATION evidence enough that it's not really a stat at all?"
If this were the case, then one could say that hits aren't really a stat at all, since whether a play is a hit or an error is up to the interpretation of the official scorer.
July 13th, 2010 at 3:23 pm
Another interesting question would be why teams don't use the strategy of swapping relief pitchers between the mound and a field position as a matter of course. It wouldn't be so difficult to train your bullpen staff to play first base, allowing your right-handed and left-handed relievers to move back and forth to maintain the platoon advantage.
July 13th, 2010 at 3:59 pm
@7 Lee Dambis - I was thinking the same thing when reading this. It is an intriguing idea (not that I think teams will do it but still).
July 13th, 2010 at 5:09 pm
DavidJ-
Well, there is definitely arguments in favor of doing away with the Error.
I suppose there is a certain level of "interpretation" to every stat. But I do think there is a difference between, "Was it a hit or was it an error?" and "What is a save?"
I was also being snarky.
July 13th, 2010 at 5:16 pm
Granted the rule book I have is for the NCAA, not the MLB, but one of the stated conditions for a save is that "[the pitcher] is not the winning pitcher".
I don't know if a hold even has an "official" definition, been I would imagine that a HOLD and a save in the same game might be possible.
July 14th, 2010 at 12:47 am
@7&8
I definitely think it should be used more often. People react to using a relief pitcher as a fielder with such disbelief, its as if you've suggested a Golden Retriever should cover first.
Its not as if a relief pitcher is so specialized, it can't be conceived he could handle a ball at first. I mean, the guy is a athlete, and not only an athlete, but to be in the Majors, in the .000001% of the best at his particular sport. I am not saying it is not without its risks, but in certain situations, I think worth the reward. Or it can be viewed as the Hockey equivalent of 'pulling the goalie' - a last resort.
Another way it can be used, is when a lefty like Ortiz or Dunn is up, and the shift is on. Why not dump your righty in left field, and bring in your southpaw?
I don't think there has been an inventive manager in baseball since Bobby Valentine. Most operate out of fear of the media reaction.
July 14th, 2010 at 7:41 am
Sticking the pitcher in the outfield is a much better proposition. Presumably a player could catch a fly ball as opposed to covering the base, fielding a grounder, moving to the bag if the ball is hit somewhere else on the infield. Also a team probably has more outfielders than firstbasemen which will be needed when the pitcher goes back to the mound. The pitcher could be shifted between left and right based on the hitters pull probability. Witness the genius of Whitey Herzog and the joggability of Jose DeLeon and Tom Brunansky in this game.
July 14th, 2010 at 10:56 am
It´s funny to see, what happens if you do a Index Search with following parameters
From 1920 to 2010, Recorded Save, as Starter, sorted by most recent date
the only instance appearing is this game:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/BRO/BRO193206160.shtml
why Larry Benton is recieving a save??
July 14th, 2010 at 11:05 am
Good find Koma. That clearly seems to be a mistake. You should notify the powers that be. Does anyone have the Lahman database or anything else which shows Benton credited with two saves that season?
July 14th, 2010 at 11:17 am
Does anyone know why McDowell and Pierce both have their runs allowed (R) listed against their SP line while their earned runs allowed (ER) are listed against their RP line?
July 14th, 2010 at 3:47 pm
Which brings up another hypothetical situation:
Can a pitcher, in a situation like those described above, record both a Quality Start, and a Save?
Despite what you mightbe thinking, no, I do not stay up nights thinking of these thngs; and no, my mama really didn't drop me on my head a few too many times.
July 14th, 2010 at 3:57 pm
Re: Pitchers in the field
I've argued that football should do this as well. Roster spots in football are so valuable, and 2 of them are wasted on kicking specialists. We saw a few years ago, when Chad Ochocinco was forced into kicking duties, that it's possible to have a multi-tasker who can fill the role. Now, Ochocinco played soccer in high school, so I doubt all could do as well as he did. But I'm sure if you reserved your 5th WR for a guy who could also kick, you'd save yourself a roster spot. I don't get why MLB feels the need to be so specialized either. Obviously, you don't want EVERY player to be in this role, but we've seen how super-utility guys can greatly increase the flexibility for roster alignment and use, so why not expand this to RPs, who are probably the most specialized guys on the roster?
July 14th, 2010 at 5:58 pm
BSK,
Couldn't agree with you more. There was a time when the Quarterback and the Cornerback/Free-Safety were the same guy. I know that's taking it a bit far, but wasn't Blanda the Quarterback and Place Kicker for some great Dolphins teams?
I also remember future Super Bowl-winning Quarterback, Jeff Hostetler, playing special teams and blocking a punt while he was still Phil Simms' back up.
Managers use some pitchers as pinch runners, so that begs the question, why not fielder?
Ron Darling, Mike Hampton and Greg Maddux were the best fielding pitchers I ever saw. They could surely play first base.
Instead of bunting drills during BP, relief pitchers, whom almost never bat due to the double switch, should be shagging flies or taking grounders.
I think the whole concept would revolutionize the game, make it more strategic and give us guys one more thing to double guess and criticize. In other words, great.
July 14th, 2010 at 7:44 pm
I don't say up at night thinking of things like this -- really, I don't. But if, in a situation like this with a score of 1-0 and his team down, a starter goes to the field behind, plays in the field whle his team takes the lead, then comes back to the mound to preserve a one-run lead, will he be awarded both a quality start and a save?
July 14th, 2010 at 10:27 pm
Sam McDowell was moved to second base in that 1970 game against the Senators because he was Frank Howard's personal chew toy. In the bottom of the sixth of this September 2, 1970 game, Dean Chance again was brought in to face Howard and get McDowell out of a jam. McDowell played the rest of the inning at first base, then returned to the mound the next inning. He wound up finishing the game and taking the loss.
In that September game, McDowell twice walked Howard intentionally leading off an inning.
Although for some reason McDowell handled him pretty well in the odd-numbered years, Howard’s slash stats against McDowell in 1966, 1968 and 1970 were a combined .517/.696/1.207 for an OPS of 1.903, including 17 walks in 46 plate appearances.
July 15th, 2010 at 8:19 am
Maybe a dumb question, but does/did Sudden Sam get a complete game?
July 15th, 2010 at 9:59 am
@BSK, Duke
Pat McInally was a punter/wide receiver for the Bengals in the mid-80s. It appears from his record that they found better receivers as his career progressed but he still punted.
July 20th, 2010 at 12:43 pm
For the QS/save situation, it is possible. Say, for example, the starter gives up 3 runs in 6 innings (a QS) then moves to first base with the game tied. Let's also say he hits a grand slam to make it a 7-3 lead in the 8th, then moves back to pitcher with it 8-3 with one out in the 9th and a runner on. If he induces a double play, he gets the save since:
1. He was the finishing pitcher, and
2. He was not the winning pitcher, and
3. He pitched at least three innings. (6 in his first stint, 2/3 in his second.)