Just how old is Jamie Moyer?
Posted by Andy on June 6, 2010
A few random facts for you about Jamie Moyer:
He has faced a whopping TWENTY players who are already in the Hall of Fame:
| PA | AB | H | 2B | 3B | HR | RBI | BB | SO | |||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Wade Boggs | 59 | 55 | 21 | 2 | 0 | 2 | 8 | 3 | 4 | .382 | .414 | .527 | .941 |
| George Brett | 11 | 11 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | .182 | .182 | .273 | .455 |
| Steve Carlton | 2 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | .000 | .000 | .000 | .000 |
| Gary Carter | 22 | 20 | 8 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 1 | 2 | .400 | .409 | .450 | .859 |
| Carlton Fisk | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | .667 | .667 | 1.000 | 1.667 |
| Tony Gwynn | 28 | 24 | 10 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 3 | 3 | 1 | .417 | .464 | .542 | 1.006 |
| Rickey Henderson | 29 | 27 | 6 | 4 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 6 | .222 | .276 | .370 | .646 |
| Paul Molitor | 35 | 32 | 11 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 6 | 1 | 3 | .344 | .353 | .438 | .790 |
| Eddie Murray | 12 | 12 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | .167 | .167 | .250 | .417 |
| Tony Perez | 3 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | .000 | .000 | .000 | .000 |
| Kirby Puckett | 20 | 17 | 3 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 1 | .176 | .263 | .235 | .498 |
| Jim Rice | 2 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | .000 | .500 | .000 | .500 |
| Cal Ripken | 50 | 44 | 13 | 2 | 0 | 2 | 6 | 6 | 2 | .295 | .380 | .477 | .857 |
| Nolan Ryan | 10 | 9 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 5 | .000 | .000 | .000 | .000 |
| Ryne Sandberg | 3 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 0 | .000 | .667 | .000 | .667 |
| Mike Schmidt | 33 | 27 | 12 | 1 | 0 | 2 | 9 | 4 | 2 | .444 | .515 | .704 | 1.219 |
| Ozzie Smith | 18 | 17 | 4 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 4 | 1 | 0 | .235 | .278 | .412 | .690 |
| Don Sutton | 2 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | .000 | .000 | .000 | .000 |
| Dave Winfield | 7 | 5 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 1 | .600 | .714 | 1.400 | 2.114 |
| Robin Yount | 15 | 11 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 4 | 0 | .273 | .467 | .273 | .739 |
Keep in mind that this doesn't count a whole pile of guys who have recently retired or are still active who will be in the HOF one day. When it's all said and done I wonder if Moyer will have faced the most HOFers of all time?
Think about the fact that by virtue of facing guys like Sutton and Carlton, a pitcher active in 2010 played against players active in the 1960s.
He's faced the following hitters who are now deceased:
Jose Uribe (10), Kirby Puckett (20), Gus Polidor (2), Carlos Martinez (18), Ron Jones (8), Bo Diaz (8), Andujar Cedeno (5), Ken Caminiti (16), Ivan Calderon (15), and Chris Brown (18).
The numbers in parentheses are the number of plate appearances against Moyer.
And don't get me started on the number of guys he's faced who weren't even born when he first made the majors. That's a very long list already.
June 6th, 2010 at 10:06 am
My guess would be that a pitcher from the 30s holds the record for most HOF faced. That era is over-represented in the Hall.
June 6th, 2010 at 10:39 am
All the top seasons by HOF-count are between 1925-35. 1930 has the most with 61. A good candidate would be a pitcher with a decent-length career from this time who switched leagues at some point. Switching leagues was much less common back then. Someone like Carl Mays, but maybe 5-10 years younger.
June 6th, 2010 at 10:56 am
How long has Jamie Moyer been around? He was playing when the Pirates were good!
June 6th, 2010 at 11:12 am
OK. Scanned for guys from the 1920s-30s who pitched in both leagues. I used the geometric mean the IP from each league to rank the most likely candidates. Waite Hoyt, Tom Zachary, Danny MacFayden, Carl Mays, Dutch Ruether, Syl Johnson, Ray Kolp. If I had to make a wild guess out of those, I'd go with Zachary.
June 6th, 2010 at 11:25 am
I don't know Jeff, those guys only faced 7 teams a season. With the schedules today, an NLer has 15 different league opponents and will appear against 2 to 4 AL teams to depending on the length of the schedule.
For the record Jamie Moyer is 100-75; with 233 GS; 1458.1 IP; and 847 SO since he reached his 40th birthday.
June 6th, 2010 at 12:12 pm
Moyer also has head-to-head decisions (defined as both getting a decision in the same game) against 20 200-game winners, part of my ongoing research in 200GW matchups. I find it fascinating that he's both 1-3 vs. Nolan Ryan and Pedro Martinez, whose careers barely overlapped. It's not the most guys, however. So far I have with 25 or more: Morris 26, Tanana 26, Ryan 29, Jenkins 25, John 27, G. Perry 26. This includes playoffs.
Jamie Moyer 22-30
vs. Carlton 1-0
vs. Ryan 1-3
vs. Hershiser 0-1
vs. Reuss 1-0
vs. Reuschel 1-3
vs. Welch 0-2
vs. Sutton 0-1
vs. Smoltz 0-1
vs. D. Martinez 0-2
vs. R. Johnson 0-2
vs. Wells 4-1
vs. Finley 3-2
vs. Pettitte 3-3
vs. Mussina 3-0
vs. Rogers 2-1
vs. Clemens 1-2
vs. P. Martinez 1-3
vs. Schilling 0-1
vs. Maddux 1-1
vs. Glavine 0-1
June 6th, 2010 at 12:54 pm
Jamie Moyer is old enough to be the only remaining active player who is likely to have a memory of having seen Willie Mays play!
Is that sad, or what?
June 6th, 2010 at 1:14 pm
As a phillies fan, it saddens me that I didn't even know Ron Jones died a few years ago. My question for anyone here is how did he die? I've checked wikipedia and other pages, and I've just seen the date of death.
June 6th, 2010 at 1:32 pm
Jones died from an aneurism I believe.
BTW Moyer pitched a complete game victory yesterday and pushed his ERA into the 3's.
June 6th, 2010 at 2:09 pm
Moyer's 1st start was against Steve Carlton in his next to last start with the Phils before getting released.
June 6th, 2010 at 3:36 pm
I remember reading once about a pitcher who'd faced both Ty Cobb and Ted williams {I think it was Ted Lyons that was being discussed}, and how impressive that was. I wonder if people will be saying that about Moyer, facing Sutton or Carlton and whoever is the big fading star of 2030.
If Moyer isn't still pitching in 2030, that is.
June 6th, 2010 at 3:42 pm
Excellent observation Frank...wow. Moyer almost certainly will face someone who will be active in 2030. That is mind-blowing to think about. 1963 is going to seem like an absolute eternity ago come then.
June 6th, 2010 at 4:02 pm
Its too bad the Phillies don't have any of these young maybe-make-it-to-2030 rookies themselves or Moyer would be a great candidate to show up in those "Oracle of Baseball" searches. We've all seen how certain chains show up quite a bit. Simmons-Carlton-Mulholland or Grimm-Cavarretta-Minoso.
June 6th, 2010 at 4:23 pm
@#13 DavidRF - the Phils haven't had any or many youngsters but Moyer was on the 2006 Mariners with King Felix and Adam Jones, both of whom are still only 24.
June 6th, 2010 at 5:09 pm
"I wonder if people will be saying that about Moyer"
He's faced Heyward already and I think he pitched against the Cubs who have that 20 year old SS.
June 6th, 2010 at 5:18 pm
One of the classic baseball trivia questions is, What pitcher struck out both Babe Ruth and Mickey Mantle? Al Benton. And every so often, someone brings up the fact that Stan Musial, who debuted before Pearl Harbor was bombed, penicillin hadn't become medicine, TV was in its infancy and the computer hadn't been invented; got his last hit past a diving rookie second baseman named Pete Rose, who last played after the space shuttle Challenger blew up, with mobile phones invented and computers now coming in laptop form. I also read an interview with Cy Young who said that in his last game, in 1911, he was beaten by a rookie named Grover Cleveland Alexander. (Whether that's true, I don't know.) But let's not be too hard on Jamie Moyer. After all this is a man who pitched in Connie Mack Stadium. For Connie Mack. (Okay, maybe he saw a game there. He has admitted to being at both Phillies' WS parades, at the first and IN the second.)
June 6th, 2010 at 5:23 pm
He faced both Griffeys at 37 years old 1987 and 2007
June 6th, 2010 at 5:30 pm
Baseball reference says Cy Young's last game was October 6, 1911 so Pete didn't beat him in his final game, BUT he did beat him that year on Sept 7, 1911.
June 6th, 2010 at 5:32 pm
This makes me wonder about a different kind of "Oracle of Baseball" where instead of being guys you played WITH, it would be people you directly faced, pitcher/batter. Such a tool would inherently favor pitchers, who both hit and pitch at least some (disregarding some recent and with interleague play semi-recent AL pitchers) and it would be much much much harder to program than the current tool.
I think it's more interesting though. Moyer probably has a link of length two against somebody like Mays (he either pitched to or hit off of someone who pitched to Mays) and a link of length four to someone like Ruth.
June 6th, 2010 at 6:39 pm
Tony Perez faced both Warren Spahn, who debuted (albeit briefly) in 1942 and Jamie Moyer, who is still pitching in 2010.
June 6th, 2010 at 6:43 pm
Jamie Moyer faced
Tony Perez who faced
Warren Spahn who faced
Dick Bartell who faced
Pete Alexander who faced
Cy Young who faced
Cap Anson
Dick Bartell doesn't have the star power of the other guys, but it was the best I could do. Spahn pitched two games against the Giants in 1942. Mel Ott only played in one of those two and in that game Spahn only faced two batters.
June 6th, 2010 at 6:51 pm
I don't know who holds the record for most HoFers faced, but (as of a David Vincent post to sabr-l in 2001) the record for most career HoF teammates is 36, held by Joe Bush, Burleigh Grimes, and Waite Hoyt, with Doc Farrell just behind at 35.
June 6th, 2010 at 6:53 pm
@19 - I believe the oldest player Moyer faced was Tony Perez in 1986, Perez's last year. Perez faced Warren Spahn a dozen times early in his career and Spahn goes back to 1942 (although he only pitched 15 innings that year and didn't really get going until 1946) so there you go. . . .Moyer is 2 links from WWII.
Given how few innings Spahn pitched it's unlikely that they squared off but Paul Waner was still in the bigs in 1942 and he started in 1926.
June 6th, 2010 at 6:59 pm
The Oracle thing is fun but when it comes to teammates, 90% of them run through Phil Niekro/Warren Spahn or Pete Rose or Tony Perez & Joe Nuxhall
June 6th, 2010 at 7:18 pm
@23
Paul Waner and Warren Spahn were teammates in 1942.
Spahn did face Dick Bartell who was active in 1927. There's a 2 in 9 chance he faced Mel Ott who was active in 1926.
June 6th, 2010 at 8:44 pm
How about this? Moyer has faced batters born in 6 different decades - 40's-90's (faced Starlin Castro this year - born in 1990)
June 6th, 2010 at 10:47 pm
#23/Spahn faced Mel Ott on 4/19/42, as he was the starting pitcher and Ott played the whole game in RF
June 6th, 2010 at 10:51 pm
21/and Ott faced Alexander, so you can replace Bartell with Ott
June 6th, 2010 at 11:19 pm
I saw that game, Spahn didn't start and only faced two batters in relief:
http://retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1942/B04190BSN1942.htm
In the other Giants game Spahn pitched that year, Spahn pitched 7 IP, Bartell did, but Ott didn't:
http://retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1942/B09262NY11942.htm
In a fun tangential note, it was a complete game but no decision for Spahn. Although trailing, the Braves won by forfeit when hundreds of children swarmed the field carrying shrapnel to donate for the war effort. They couldn't restore order so the umps called the game and gave it to the visitors.
June 7th, 2010 at 12:47 am
Indeed, if you look at Spahn's record for the year 1942, he had one complete game but no decisions. He couldn't be given the win, since his team was trailing, and he had to be given the complete game, since he was the only pitcher for his team in the game.
June 7th, 2010 at 4:47 am
Jamie Moyer is so old that he was already pitching in the major leagues before my daughter, the mother of my three grandchildren, was born. (1986). When he was a rookie I was a newlywed, now I take people who call me 'Pappy' to baseball games.
June 7th, 2010 at 8:40 am
This is the first I knew of Ivan Calderon being dead (apparently he was shot 6 times in the back of the head 7 years ago). Color me uninformed!
June 7th, 2010 at 4:33 pm
I have comprised a list of potential Hall of Famers who Jamie Moyer has faced, as well as a note on the odds of each. For some, it is far too early to determine their chances, in this case I have noted such. However, I have only included such players if there is reason to believe they may develop into a HOF'er.
Potential HOF Jamie Moyer has faced:
• Bernie Williams (probably HOF)
• Rafael Palmeiro (Unlikely HOF)
• Ivan Rodriguez (Possible HOF)
• Derek Jeter (Definite HOF)
• Omar VIzquel (Possible HOF)
• Jason Giambi (Unlikely HOF)
• Manny Ramirez (Probable HOF)
• Alex Rodriguez (Definite HOF)
• Frank Thomas (Possible HOF)
• David Wright (Too early to tell)
• Juan Gonzalez (Possible HOF)
• Johnny Damon (Unlikely HOF)
• Kenny Lofton (Probable HOF)
• Hanley Ramirez (too early to tell)
• Jose Reyes (too early to tell)
• Roberto Alomar (probable HOF)
• Gary Sheffield (Possible HOF)
• Mark Teixeira (too early to tell)
• Barry Bonds (Too complicated to call)
• Paul Konerko (Unlikely HOF)
• Nomar Garciapara (Unlikely HOF)
• Vladimir Guerrero (Possible hOF)
• Sandy Alomar (possible HOF)
• Ryan Zimmerman (too early to tell)
• Ken Griffey (definite HOF)
• Chipper Jones (possible HOF)
• Jose Canseco (too complicated)
• Carl Crawford (too early to tell)
• Andruw Jones (Possible HOF)
• Mark McGwire (too complicated)
• Adrian Gonzalez (too early to tell)
• Todd Helton (unlikely HOF)
• Prince Fielder (too early to tell)
• Jeff Kent (Possible HOF)
• Sammy Sosa (too complicated)
• Edgar Martinez (possible HOF – complicated)
• Mike Piazza (possible HOF)
• Albert Pujols (barring career-ending injury, definite HOF)
• Russell Martin (too early to tell)
• Kevin Youkilis (too early to tell)
• Harold Baines (possible HOF)
• Andre Ethier (too early to tell)
• BJ Upton (too early to tell)
• Matt Holliday (too early to tell)
• Tom Glavine (probable HOF)
• Josh Hamilton (too early to tell)
• Justin Morneau (too early to tell)
• Randy Johnson (probable HOF)
• Greg Maddux (Probable HOF)
• Nelson Cruz (too early to tell)
• Ike Davis (too early to tell)
• Dustin Pedroia (too early to tell)
• Jimmy Rollins (too early to tell)
• John Smoltz (possible HOF)
• David Wells (unlikely HOF)
• Starling Castro (too early to tell)
• Kevin Millwood (unlikely HOF)
•
There are 57 players on that list (plus the 20 in the original post.) Here are a further breakdown.
Definite HOF: 4 (including Pujols, who theoretically could suffer a career ending injury and not be eligible, but is a safe bet otherwise.)
Probable HOF: 7
Possible HOF: 14 (Including Edgar Martinez, whose situation is complicated by his DH)
Unlikely HOF: 8
Complicated: 4 (excluding Martinez - this designation is reserved for steroid users who definitely deserve in based solely on numbers)
Too early to tell: 20
So, let's assume all of the definite and probable HOFs eventually make it. That would mean Moyer would have faced 31 HOFers (assuming he does not face any more that he hasn't already faced.) That would mean that he would just need 6 out of the 34 who are possible or too early to tell to make the Hall to tie the record, or 7 to break it. And that should happen, eventually. And, if one or more of the unlikelies makes it, that would work. But Palmeiro is the only one of those.
June 7th, 2010 at 5:12 pm
@33
Nice list, but where are you getting that the record is 37? The numbers listed in @22 were for HOF teammates, not opponents faced. One generally plays against more players than they play with.
Just picking a two-league player out of a hat, Gaylord Perry pitched against 48 HOF-ers.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/play-index/p-pvb.cgi?year=0&n1=perryga01#choice=HOF&bats=&minPA2=0&year_game=career&opp_id=&orderby=PA&orderbyb=Name&minPA=0&orderbydir=DESC&orderbydirb=ASC&n1=perryga01&as=pitcher
A whopping 61 HOF-ers were active in 1930. We only have play-by-play data back to 1952, so I don't know how to test a guy like Waite Hoyt.
June 7th, 2010 at 6:00 pm
Jim Kaat faced both Ted Williams and Julio Franco. Looks like the Spahn, Perez, and Moyer combo will break that in longevity.
Too early to tell if 2011 is a lock for Moyer to continue, but he's on the right track. However, if Jamie Moyer went to play in Cuba or the Dominican Repulic right now his age would be 24 and 25 respectively.
June 7th, 2010 at 6:28 pm
Gregory
Frank Thomas and Mike Piazza possible? HOFs while Bernie Williams a probabale????? Hof??
What ganes were you watching?
Tou can add Randy Johnson and Greg Maddux as definites as well.
June 7th, 2010 at 6:30 pm
Sorry for the typos.
June 7th, 2010 at 6:57 pm
Greg Maddux made his debut during a Jamie Moyer start in 1986. Rafael Palmeiro also made his debut in 1986.
Moyer was teammates of Ron Cey and Davey Lopes in 1986, who were in the twilights of their careers. I think Terry Francona was also on that Cubs team.
The Cubs rotation in September of 1986 included Dennis Eckersley, Greg Maddux, and Jamie Moyer. Yes, Eckersley was still a starter at that time.
June 7th, 2010 at 9:26 pm
DavidRF, here's a not-quite-satisfactory way to check up on Waite Hoyt. Go to http://www.retrosheet.org/ select Games, People, Players, click on HO, scroll down to the bottom, click on Hoyt - that should get you to http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/H/Phoytw101.htm Now click on Batter matchups to get an incomplete (but still pretty impressive) alphabetical list of batters Hoyt faced. A lot of HoFers between Luke Appling and Zack Wheat. He faced HoFer Sam Rice at least 98 times.
June 7th, 2010 at 9:38 pm
@38 - Cey debuted in 1971 and Lopes a year later (he was older but got a late start in the majors). Actually Moyer's teammate that reaches the furthest back was a few years later when he was traded to Texas and pitched with Nolan Ryan who debuted in 1966. Having played with the Oracle a bit though, Ryan never makes a very good connector because he played with very few old-timers in his early days with the Mets.
June 7th, 2010 at 11:53 pm
@39
Thanks Gerry. I didn't know about those pages. I assume with no play-by-play that those are collected from complete games only? Plus they say the cut off batters that had few than 4 PA. So, given those constraints, I counted 51 HOF-ers for Waite Hoyt and 53 for Tom Zachary. Bobo Newsom only had 34 (too much AL). Dutch Leonard had 50 but he benefits from playing into the play-by-play era. In fact, it looks like he had all his CG's in the box-score era and became a reliever in the play-by-play era. That helps.
I'm not using a script, so maybe someone else knows a better way to mine those pages.
For the bb-ref era, I found that Nolan Ryan matched Gaylord Perry with 48.
June 8th, 2010 at 2:56 am
You don't really think Canseco deserves to be in the HOF if not for steroids, do you? Past age 26, he wasn't any kind of elite player. Played 130+ games in a season just once from age 27 to the end of his career at a 125 OPS+ for that span.
June 8th, 2010 at 2:57 am
Also, I'm disappointed that Phil Niekro was in the AL for all but 3 IP in 1986. Now THAT would have been cool. Moyer could have faced a player born in 1939 and one born in 1990 in his career.
June 8th, 2010 at 2:57 am
*1987
June 8th, 2010 at 10:42 am
I remember Jamie Moyer when he was a Chicago Cub. I can't say that much more about him because i don't remember anything significant about him back then. The Cubs, however did trade him which was their lost and somebody else's gain. For a 47 year old he's still kicking which is good for a pitcher. For him to face that many HOF"s dead and some still alive is a good accomplishment for a major league player. Good job, Jamie
June 8th, 2010 at 10:48 am
In my 3 years of writing on this blog, comment #31 from Brian C is my all-time favorite.
June 8th, 2010 at 12:28 pm
14 consecutive years with 20+ starts, 17 consecutive years with 18+ starts. Plus he's on track to continue both those streaks this year and maybe pitch again next year. I love this guy and hope he pitches into his 50s.
On a side note, it always seemed to me that Cal Ripken went from borderline HoFer to no doubt first ballot because of his streak and intangibles. Shouldn't Moyer be getting a similar boost from pitching for 25 years?
June 8th, 2010 at 2:37 pm
@47
Ripken, borderline?!? I mean, he declined after 1991 and was revered more as a statesman than a player in his late 30s but he amassed loads of value from 1982-91. Check any uber-metric (WAR, WS, etc) and Ripken is sky-high. He's in easy without the streak and intangibles. You guys make me feel old because I remember the 1980s.
June 10th, 2010 at 1:07 am
Jamie Moyer's so old he debuted before HE was even born.
June 12th, 2010 at 2:40 pm
How about Pudge Rodriguez who caught Nolan Ryan's last game and Stephen Strasbergs First game!