All-time Tigers/Rangers team
Posted by Andy on October 9, 2011
Here are the top players by position to play in the majors for both the Tigers and the Rangers:
C: Ivan Rodriguez, Mickey Tettleton 1B: Phil Nevin, Carlos Pena 2B: Dalton Jones 3B: Dean Palmer SS: Scott Fletcher LF: Willie Horton, Frank Howard, Frank Catalanotto CF: Johnny Grubb RF: Juan Gonzalez, Rusty Staub, Ruben Sierra Utility: Matt Stairs Starting pitchers: Kenny Rogers, Joe Coleman, Frank Tanana, Denny McLain, Doyle Alexander Relief pitchers: Doug Brocail, Mike Henneman, Dave Rozema, Francisco Cordero, Ugueth Urbina, Joaquin Benoit, Mike Marshall
October 9th, 2011 at 3:47 pm
Anybody know how Urbina has been doing in the Venezualan Prison League?
October 9th, 2011 at 4:04 pm
What? No Pete Incaviglia?
October 9th, 2011 at 4:06 pm
There are a ton of corner outfielders to choose from. Incaviglia didn't make the cut.
October 9th, 2011 at 4:41 pm
All-time team based on WHAT? I don't think ANY of these players would make my all-time teams for either squad.
October 9th, 2011 at 4:46 pm
Read the post. These are the best players to play for both the Tigers and the Rangers.
October 9th, 2011 at 5:32 pm
Pudge wouldn"t make any All-Time? Hes the best catcher every team hes played for has ever had, except maybe the Yankees, but personally Id take him over Berra, Dickey, Howard or Munson.
October 9th, 2011 at 5:35 pm
I'd take Posada over Munson and Howard, too. But I woudln't take Pudge over Berra or Dickey.
October 9th, 2011 at 5:36 pm
*All-Time Team. Horton, Howard and Rogers were pretty good as well. Jaun Gone's still underrated.
October 9th, 2011 at 5:39 pm
that's an ugly collection Andy, don't do that anymore. Please.
October 9th, 2011 at 5:40 pm
It's like those websites where they morph the faces of two celebrities. You know it's gonna be ugly.
October 9th, 2011 at 5:58 pm
Most obscure Tiger/Ranger? How about Jermaine Clark?
October 9th, 2011 at 7:51 pm
I have got to believe that Frank Howard should be at 1B and how could you forget Todd Van Poppel (we wish we could in Detroit).
October 9th, 2011 at 8:08 pm
In his career, Howard played 923 games in LF, 533 games in RF, and 334 games at 1B....I pretty much went with whatever the dominant position was for each guy, but you're certainly right that Howard played a bunch of 1B in his career.
October 9th, 2011 at 11:50 pm
Detroit definitely wound up with the best years of the starting pitchers but offensively the Rangers got the best years out of Rodriguez, Gonzalez & Sierra & while Willie Horton has been under-rated historically & could stack up pretty well against Gonzalez & is clearly better than Sierra he can't take
'em all on by himself...
October 10th, 2011 at 12:27 am
@ 6 You have to judge the Pudge who played for the Yankees against all those other greats. Obviously, that Pudge falls short. Just as 38-39 year old Pudge falls short against an in his prime Gary Carter.
October 10th, 2011 at 12:28 am
This team sweeps the Cards-Brewers team in the Historical Mixed Club World Series
October 10th, 2011 at 3:08 am
You forgot this category:
Best Umpire Kiss-Asser - Jim Leyland.
October 10th, 2011 at 8:58 am
Fun post for me.
Seems like someone should mention that by "Rangers" you also are including the Washington Senators franchise that started up after the original Senators moved to Minnesota.
Dalton Jones looks like an odd story. Because a sort of regular (400 PA) at age 20 for Boston. Stunk, but they brought him back the next season at age 21. They eventually figured out he wasn't good enough to be an everyday player but he stuck in the big leagues seemingly.
Mickey Tettleton in his Tiger years was a better player than Ivan Rodriguez in his Tiger years, so I'm glad you listed both.
Is Juan Gonzalez under or over-rated? I always thought of him as overrated given the MVP balloting but by the time he was eligible for the Hall of Fame, we had memories of his injury history, rumored steroids use, more accurate appreciation for the value of OBP versus RBIs, and he drew very little support from the writers. Of course, in Detroit we can't stand the guy regardless!
October 10th, 2011 at 9:22 am
I tend to think Gonzalez is overrated, depending on how you look at it.
He has a career OPS+ of 132. The players with at least 7,000 plate appearances and a career OPS+ of 132 are:
Generated 10/10/2011.
Not a bad group although with the exceptions of Canseco, Palmeiro, and Gonzalez, not tremendous power hitters. Most of these guys achieved their high OPS+ thanks to a particularly high OBP and a good SLG. Gonzalez is sort of weird in that he focused a high percentage of his homers in a small number of seasons: In 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, and 1998, he hit 223 out of his 434 career homers (51.3%) despite having only 42.8% of his career plate appearances in those 5 seasons.
I think the bottom line is that Gonzalez had 5 tremendous years and a bunch of other years that ranged from good to poor.
October 10th, 2011 at 9:41 am
@19 Pretty sure Rocky Colavito fits the definition of a tremendous power hitter.
October 10th, 2011 at 10:00 am
@19
Thanks, Andy. Note that OPS+, while good enough for a quick sort in most cases, will tend to overrate a guy like Juan Gone whose value is mostly in SLG instead of OBP, so he is a few ticks worse than these guys.
October 10th, 2011 at 11:05 am
I will take the 1960's McLain, please.
But looking at his stats raises yet another question about WAR for me.
In 1968, in nearly every category, McLain's stats were better than those in 1969. In some categories, the differences were huge. 280 K's in 1968. 181 in 1969.
Yet, his WAR in 1969 7.5 compared to 5.9 in 1968. It's hard for me to believe that McLain was a better or more valuable pitcher in 1969 than in 1968.
October 10th, 2011 at 11:14 am
@22 - the run-scoring environment was very different in 1969 than in 1968 (which is pretty famous for being the extreme end of that period of low offense).
October 10th, 2011 at 11:14 am
Joseph, that exact point about McLain's 1968 has been raised before with regards to WAR. I'm not sure why it turns out that way.
October 10th, 2011 at 11:37 am
The 1968 Tigers have some strange looking stats by today's standards. They won 103 games. Lolich's ERA was 3.19, but it was only worth 95 ERA+.
Their top closer had only 7 saves.
None of the hitters had 100 runs or 100 RBI. None of the starters hit .300 or even .290. (Yaz lead the league in BA with .301--that says a lot, I guess).
Thanks for indulging me in my public confusion.
October 10th, 2011 at 12:42 pm
In 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, and 1998, he hit 223 out of his 434 career homers (51.3%) despite having only 42.8% of his career plate appearances in those 5 seasons.
Without bothering to calculate any other player, I'll brazenly say that hitting 51% of one's HR in 43% of one's PA doesn't seem at all unusual.
October 10th, 2011 at 12:45 pm
I suspect you're right JT--I started to look at it for Canseco as well and then ran out of time, but it looks similar.
At #21, Detroit Michael nicely summed up my main point about Gonzalez.
October 10th, 2011 at 1:05 pm
I don't understand the criteria for this list. Dalton Jones over Charlie Gehringer? Johnny Grubb over Ty Cobb? Phil Nevin over Hank Greenberg? What's going on here?
October 10th, 2011 at 1:06 pm
had to play for both teams, not either team
October 10th, 2011 at 1:31 pm
My question is what pairing of any two teams would make the strongest team. Guessing it would be Yankees-A's or Yankees-Red Sox.
October 10th, 2011 at 2:31 pm
I was afraid I'd see Eddie Brinkman at short. Forgot Fletcher spent some time in Detroit... But it was right at the end of his career and during a Tigers' dark era.
I can make a case for Aurelio at shortstop. Rodriguez had 5.2 WAR for nine years in Detroit and 4.6 WAR for his year in Washington.
Palmer had 6.5 WAR in 8 years in Texas, and 1.4 WAR in five years with the Tigers.
Of course they achieve this in absolutely opposite ways - Aurelio with the glove, Palmer with the bat. It was fun to watch Aurelio; had the most effortless throwing motion I have ever seen on any player, any position, and they were all laser shots across the diamond.
October 10th, 2011 at 2:35 pm
I can make a case for Aurelio at THIRD BASE....
October 10th, 2011 at 2:41 pm
@30
Red Sox-A's would have Foxx and Grove to begin with. so that would be worth looking at as well.
October 10th, 2011 at 4:41 pm
Red Sox-Yankees would have an amazing team. The problem would be who to cut:
Babe Ruth, Rickey Henderson, Jack Clark, Wade Boggs, Wally Schang, George Burns, Del Pratt, Boomer Scott, John Olerud, Lefty O'Doul, Elston Howard,
Sparky Lyle, Luis Tiant, Frank Tanana, Lee Smith, David Cone, Jack Chesbro, Bobo Newsom, Waite Hoyt, Wes Ferrell, Roger Clemens,
October 10th, 2011 at 5:37 pm
And you omitted Red Ruffing, off the top of my head.
Wow, no memory that Tanana ended his career with the Yankees.
October 10th, 2011 at 5:47 pm
So, what would be the best NL pairings? I'd think Giants and some other of the oldest 8 teams.
October 10th, 2011 at 5:49 pm
Other Yankees-Red Sox:
Everett Scott, Johnny Damon, Mike Stanley, Don Baylor, Jackie Jensen, Mike Easler, Jim Leyritz, Spike Owen, Tony Clark, Jose Canseco, Eric Hinske, Doug Mientkiewicz, Mark Bellhorn, Otis Nixon....
Other pitchers:
Jack Quinn, Sad Sam Jones, Carl Mays, Tom Gordon, Mickey McDermott, Steve Farr, Wes Ferrell, Rob Murphy, Jeff Reardon, Lee Smith, Bob Ojeda
October 10th, 2011 at 6:30 pm
A's /Yanks would include Cy Perkins, the Giambino, Willie Randolph, Bert Campaneris, Eric Chavez, RIckey Henderson, Reggie Jackson, Don Baylor, Dave Kingman, Claudell Washington, Tim Raines, Hideki Matsui, Roger Maris, Ruben Sierra and NIck Swisher, with Catfish Hunter, Ken Holtzman, Jack Quinn, Tommy John, Jose Rijo, Ted Lilly, Kenny Rogers, Ralph Terry, Joe Bush, Stan Bahnsen and Goose Gossage pitching
October 10th, 2011 at 6:37 pm
Wow #38 that's pretty good.
October 10th, 2011 at 8:04 pm
Remember that the Kansas City A's basically functioned as the Yankees' AAA squad for most of the time they were there. Lot of talent went from KC to NY as soon as it got expensive.
October 10th, 2011 at 8:10 pm
@40, Other than Maris and Terry, that doesn't really apply to anyone on the list, neither do Connie Mack's or Charlie Finley's firesales.
And I forgot that Home Run Baker played for both, he'd probably start over Chavez at 3b
October 10th, 2011 at 8:36 pm
Best NL matchup would be Cards-Giants, you'd have Mize, Cepeda, W.Clark, J. Clark, Medwick, Hornsby, Frisch, McGee, Bobby Bonds, Renteria, Reggie's Smith and Sanders, and Eric Davis, with Burleigh Grimes, Steve Carlton, Red Ames, Mort Cooper, Matt Morris, Sam Jones and Ray Sadecki pitching
October 10th, 2011 at 9:01 pm
Steve Foucalt was a distinguished reliever for both the Rangers and Tigers in the 70's. Somewhat of a high profile trade for the Tigers as they sent fan-favorite veteran Willie Horton to Texas. I don't remember Rozema doing much relief work, he was for the most part a starter.
October 10th, 2011 at 10:04 pm
Sorry - what's the joke here??? Obviously these aren't the best players to play for these teams at these positions ever...
October 11th, 2011 at 12:50 am
what's the joke here???
Your reading comprehension.
October 11th, 2011 at 5:30 am
Thanks @42
I figured it would be Giants and either Cards, Pirates or Cubs.
A Yank/Red Sox/A's trifecta team might be pretty good too.
I know Canseco, Damon, Jack Quinn Don Baylor and Joe Dugan right off would be there. Cant remember if Henderson played for Boston or not at the end.
October 11th, 2011 at 5:33 am
Oh and I believe Mark Bellhorn to add to the Yank/Sox/A trifecta
October 11th, 2011 at 7:02 am
Matt Stairs is eligible to be on twelve of these "All-Time" two team teams...
October 11th, 2011 at 7:51 am
Try 65.
October 11th, 2011 at 7:51 am
LOL and then I make a typo. 66.
October 11th, 2011 at 8:33 am
Obviously I am not smart enough to make a joke on this website. Sorry...
October 11th, 2011 at 11:08 am
+ 1 with Skeeb !
October 11th, 2011 at 2:54 pm
I love your site. keep good working.
October 11th, 2011 at 11:03 pm
This team would have to be managed by Billy Martin, right?
I can't recall the exact manner in which Billy got himself fired from Detroit late in the '73 season, but the fact that he was hired by Texas about a week later and managed their last 23 games strikes me as unusual.
What's not unusual is that Billy got immediate results in Texas, leading them from 57 wins to 84 in his first full season; or that he did it in part by giving his best pitchers a heavy workload; or that he wore out his welcome by Year 3....
October 12th, 2011 at 1:58 pm
@42 How about a Cubs-Cardnials team? Pitchers: Three Finger Brown, Grover Clevland Alexander, Dizzy Dean, Hoyte Wilhelm, Jamie Moyer, Bill Hutchinson, Dennis Eckersley, Bruce Sutter, Lee Smith;
Hitters: Rabbit Maranville, Lou Brock, Rogers Hornsby, Jim Edmonds, Shawon Dunston, Bobby Bonds, Al Dark, Delino DeShields
October 12th, 2011 at 3:40 pm
@55- the pitching is better Cubs-Cards but I think the Giants lineup is a lot stronger