Mike Flanagan (1951-2011)
Posted by Andy on August 25, 2011
Such sad news with the sudden passing of Mike Flanagan.
I'll leave the formal obituaries to others and just say that I'm sorry for his family, friends, and Orioles fans.
In 1979, Flanagan won the AL Cy Young in a landslide. Here is the voting:
| Rank | Tm | Vote Pts | 1st Place | Share | WAR | W | L | GS | CG | SHO | SV | IP | H | R | ER | HR | BB | SO | ||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Mike Flanagan | BAL | 136.0 | 26.0 | 97% | 3.6 | 23 | 9 | 3.08 | 38 | 16 | 5 | 0 | 265.2 | 245 | 107 | 91 | 23 | 70 | 190 | 1.186 | 131 |
| 2 | Tommy John | NYY | 51.0 | 1.0 | 36% | 5.2 | 21 | 9 | 2.96 | 36 | 17 | 3 | 0 | 276.1 | 268 | 109 | 91 | 9 | 65 | 111 | 1.205 | 137 |
| 3 | Ron Guidry | NYY | 26.0 | 1.0 | 19% | 6.0 | 18 | 8 | 2.78 | 30 | 15 | 2 | 2 | 236.1 | 203 | 83 | 73 | 20 | 71 | 201 | 1.159 | 146 |
| 4 | Jim Kern | TEX | 25.0 | 0.0 | 18% | 5.0 | 13 | 5 | 1.57 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 29 | 143.0 | 99 | 35 | 25 | 5 | 62 | 136 | 1.126 | 264 |
| 5 | Mike Marshall | MIN | 7.0 | 0.0 | 5% | 4.4 | 10 | 15 | 2.65 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 32 | 142.2 | 132 | 47 | 42 | 8 | 48 | 81 | 1.262 | 166 |
| 6 | Jerry Koosman | MIN | 5.0 | 0.0 | 4% | 6.5 | 20 | 13 | 3.38 | 36 | 10 | 2 | 0 | 263.2 | 268 | 108 | 99 | 19 | 83 | 157 | 1.331 | 130 |
| 7 | Dennis Eckersley | BOS | 1.0 | 0.0 | 1% | 6.8 | 17 | 10 | 2.99 | 33 | 17 | 2 | 0 | 246.2 | 234 | 89 | 82 | 29 | 59 | 150 | 1.188 | 150 |
| 7 | Aurelio Lopez | DET | 1.0 | 0.0 | 1% | 4.4 | 10 | 5 | 2.41 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 21 | 127.0 | 95 | 37 | 34 | 12 | 51 | 106 | 1.150 | 181 |
Flanagan finished first in wins in the AL with 23, followed by John with 21, Koosman with 20, and Guidry with 18. Interestingly, though, not only does he have the lowest WAR of the pitchers receiving votes, he wasn't even in the top 10 in the AL that year. Would you believe that, in fact, across MLB, Flanagan was just 29th in WAR among pitchers?
It's a strong indication of how voting has changed, especially considering recent AL winners Zack Greinke and Felix Hernandez, who both won with less-than-stellar W-L records.
That being said, I don't begrudge the voters from giving Flanagan the crown. The Orioles won 102 games and he was their best starting pitcher that season:
| Rk | Pos | Age | W | L | G | GS | CG | SHO | IP | |||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | SP | Dennis Martinez | 24 | 15 | 16 | .484 | 3.66 | 40 | 39 | 18 | 3 | 292.1 |
| 2 | SP | Mike Flanagan* | 27 | 23 | 9 | .719 | 3.08 | 39 | 38 | 16 | 5 | 265.2 |
| 3 | SP | Steve Stone | 31 | 11 | 7 | .611 | 3.77 | 32 | 32 | 3 | 0 | 186.0 |
| 4 | SP | Scott McGregor* | 25 | 13 | 6 | .684 | 3.35 | 27 | 23 | 7 | 2 | 174.2 |
| 5 | SP | Jim Palmer | 33 | 10 | 6 | .625 | 3.30 | 23 | 22 | 7 | 0 | 155.2 |
Anyway--it's an incredibly sad day. Flanagan completed the rare triple of being a player, front-office executive, and broadcaster all for the same team. He was a big part of the Orioles and I'm sure their entire organization and fan base is really hurting today.
August 25th, 2011 at 9:01 am
I'm surprised his WAR was so low... 131 ERA+ over 265 IP, 3rd in the league in K and K/9, 5th in CGs and 1st in CGSO. While the 265 IP aren't quite as impressive then as they would be now, because of a change in usage patterns, they were still good for 3rd in the league. I would think that'd add up to more than 3.6 WAR and 29th among pitchers. Was Baltimore an extreme pitcher's park in that day?
August 25th, 2011 at 9:24 am
In today's world would Jim Kern have won the Cy Young that year? 13 wins, 29 saves, 1.57 ERA (264 ERA+), pretty impressive season.
August 25th, 2011 at 9:37 am
@1
I don't buy ERA+ or any other stat that purports to adjust a player's numbers by a fixed park factor, regardless of whether he is Jacoby Ellsbury or David Ortiz.
That said, Flanagan was a rather ordinary 9-7, 3.71 ERA away from Memorial Stadium that year. I would have personally voted for Guidry.
RIP Flanny. I was a huge O's fan back then and even after Angelos alienated my affections for the team, I still had a huge amount of respect for you and those 70's and 80's teams. You are gone too soon.
August 25th, 2011 at 9:46 am
The Orioles had so many great pitchers in the 70's, I used to get them all confused. They had like 10 different guys win 20 games and like 40 win 15 games (just guesses) - but for whatever reason I remembered him and Palmer.
I love guys who stay with their orginization after hanging them up.
I think it shows loyalty and a defacto sense you are/ were a great guy with a great baseball mind.
I know people tend to say the best about a guy who recently passed, but all I've read seems really genuine, seems he was really loved and respected.
my only gripe against him is he beat Koosman (as did many Baltimore pitchers to the CY YOUNG) and as a Met fan, I always thought Koos deserved just one.
But Mike had the better year IMO.
I just started collecting cards about '79, so I have a few complete Oriole sets. I'm gonna pull them out ( have a laugh at the 'Billy Ripken Card') and see if I have the '79 Flanny.
RIP.
August 25th, 2011 at 9:52 am
@ 3 Kelly,
Never have I've seen a team run as incompetently as Angelos' O's.
Except for the recent Mets.
But that guy took a perennial winner and made them near permanent also-rans.
I do have to say that he initiated the 'New Style' in stadium upgrade/retrograde. I've really enjoyed Camden Yards a few times. That really is the only draw.
But Angelos is a retarted Steinbrenner. Some one who meddles to much but is incompetent.
He should hand the reigns to Showwalter and sit back for 5-8 years, he has no where to go but up.
August 25th, 2011 at 9:54 am
"retarted" indeed.
August 25th, 2011 at 9:56 am
@1
The WAR calculations "think" that he pitched in front of a great defense, and he should not get credit for that. If his numbers were the same with a league average defense his WAR would be about 5.0
August 25th, 2011 at 10:01 am
This might be more of an indictment of the way WAR is calculated than of Flanagan's Cy Young season. Koosman pitched two fewer innings, had a lower ERA+, struck out significantly fewer batters and walked more, but beat Flanagan in WAR 6.5 to 3.6? Odd.
My guess is that, if the voting were held today, Guidry would win - led the league in ERA, 2nd is strikeouts to Nolan Ryan (whose ERA was .87 higher).
This is terribly sad news, as Flanagan really seemed to be one of the best personalities in the game. A couple weeks ago I had been talking about how long Arthur Rhodes had been in the game by noting that he played with Flanagan and Dwight Evans. In a lot of ways though, it's hard to believe that 20 years have passed since Flanagan closed Memorial Stadium. R.I.P.
August 25th, 2011 at 10:07 am
The "29th" list was an MLB list. In the AL, he was 18th. I think WAR underrates him here. Usually guys who are 5th in ERA+ with a lot of IP don't finish that low.
I think he's getting a double-ding on fielding. He loses 13 runs for pitching in front of a great defense, yet he also gave up a disproportionate amount of unearned runs. He'd still rank behind Eck and Guidry, but 18th is too far down.
August 25th, 2011 at 10:08 am
Oops David, thanks for catching that.
August 25th, 2011 at 10:15 am
@2 - Gator would have been a good choice, too; more SO in fewer IP than Flanagan, with a lower ERA. (I'm trying to go solely by stuff the '79 voter would have noticed - and one voter DID notice it then, it seems.) He was probably hurt in the voting just as much by having such an incredible year in '78, and by not winning 20 when his teammate Tommy John did.
This is such sad, sad news about Flanagan.
August 25th, 2011 at 10:15 am
As for the Rdef/UER issue, this is where a cross-check of fangraphs' WAR might help. Normally, I'm not a fan of fWAR for pitching because they use metrics that are better for projecting and after-the-fact valuation, but they won't be affected by this flukey condition of having a lot of UER in front of a great defense. Fangraphs has Flanagan 4th that year behind John, Koosman and Guidry.
August 25th, 2011 at 10:22 am
Guidry didn't get much support in '79 because his '78 season was SO good, and he was quite a bit "worse" the next year.
P.S. Very interesting that three relievers made the top 7 that year and how many innings elite closers used to pitch vs. now.
August 25th, 2011 at 10:23 am
@12
"better for projecting *than* after-the-fact valuation". Sorry for the typo
August 25th, 2011 at 10:29 am
Can't believe Flanny's death would spur a spirited debate about the WAR.
August 25th, 2011 at 10:29 am
I was born in 1970, grew up in Baltimore to witness the latter portion of one of the great all-time franchise runs. The Orioles from 1964-83 had limited resources but brilliant management. Oriole Magic from 1977-83 was truly magical and all those Birds fans who were part of it will take the joyous memories to their graves.
A particular fond memory for me was going with my Dad to see Flanny beat the Pirates in game one of the 1979 World Series. The game was rained out, then the next day it was bitterly cold and even snowed a bit in the morning (highly unusual for Baltimore in October to say the least). I can tell you it was cold in the stands that night!
Earl Weaver was pretty old-fashioned about asking his starting pitchers to go very deep in games. In that '79 game one, he had Flanagan throw a complete game, facing 41 batters, allowing 11 hits (including an eighth-inning homer to Stargell). In John Eisenberg's great oral history of the Orioles, From 33rd Street to Camden Yards, Flanagan talks about that game, says how he threw over 150 pitches and was utterly exhausted by the end. Then in game five, when the Orioles were looking to close out the series, Flanagan ran out of gas after six innings, and of course the Pirates came back to win the series (and break a nine-year-old boy's heart).
Looking over his career, I'm surprised at how underwhelming Flanagan's stats actually were. He only had two seasons in which he pitched 200+ innings with an ERA+ of 110 or better (1979 and 1984). But he was always solid. Weaver certainly worked him hard. From 1977-80, Flanagan made 148 starts and threw 60(!) complete games. I was always glad to have him on the mound. RIP Flanny.
August 25th, 2011 at 10:30 am
I'm too young to remember Mike Flanagan pitching, but I grew up absolutely loving his cards. From what I read, it sounds like I missed out.
August 25th, 2011 at 10:37 am
I particulary remember the amazing uniform combinations of those Orioles (and the Pirates)...they were Oregon football before Oregon football.
August 25th, 2011 at 10:37 am
And of course the A's uniforms.
August 25th, 2011 at 10:42 am
Maybe it's because I've been personally affected by it twice, but why do we feel sorry for someone who took their own life?
Shouldn't our outpourings of emotions be directed to his wife and three children?
Or his co-workers, or extended family, or former teammates and opponents?
August 25th, 2011 at 10:56 am
I am only just hearing that the cause of Flanagan's death was suicide.
For the record, I never said I was sorry for him--I said for his family, friends, and the Orioles organization and fans.
August 25th, 2011 at 11:06 am
Why wouldn't you feel sorry for someone who killed himself? Apparently he was not happy with his life.
I don't think that precludes also being angry at him, if you think it was a selfish act (which is what I'm inferring).
August 25th, 2011 at 11:24 am
JT-
Yikes, this is weighty. Suicide is so complicated. On the one hand, you have to assume that most folks turn to suicide because they are in, or perceive they are in, dramatically and exceedingly dire straights. There are also those who are suffering from severe mental health issues. And these two groups are certainly not mutually exclusive. So, yea, I can see feeling for someone who finds themselves in that situation. Then again, for every person who does choose that route, there are probably 10s, 100s, 1000s who are in similar or worse situations but choose options that are less selfish, less detrimental to their loved ones, less indicative of an unwillingness to confront and persevere through life's challenges...
I do see the apparent discrepancy between feeling for the loved ones and simultaneously feeling for the one who caused them that pain unnecessarily.
Of course, all of this is speculation on top of speculation.
August 25th, 2011 at 11:29 am
Carrying the weight of an unhappy fanbase?
sources confirmed that Flanagan took his own life "despondent over what he considered a false perception from a community he loved of his role in the team's prolonged failure," Sandusky said.
The soft-spoken and well-liked left-hander grew over the years into a fixture in the Orioles organization. From 2002-08 Flanagan shared or held the top baseball executive position in the organization. During that time Flanagan, according to those closest to him, struggled with not being able to the job the way he wanted to do it, Sandusky said.
A relative confirmed that Flanagan has wrestled for some time now with the perception of fans and colleagues alike of his role in the team's failures.
August 25th, 2011 at 11:33 am
[...] hear that former Baltimore Oriole pitcher Mike Flanagan had passed away unexpectedly at age 59. (News via the Baseball Reference Blog – which, by the way, is yet another excellent feature of an indispensable resource for [...]
August 25th, 2011 at 11:40 am
Whoa, whoa - link? Source? Did someone find a note?
August 25th, 2011 at 11:43 am
http://www.wbaltv.com/sports/28967968/detail.html
August 25th, 2011 at 11:43 am
I echo Andy's sentiments. I feel horrible for his family, and the extended Orioles family including the fans.
I was 12 the day Thurman Munson died and it was my first exposure to death. I cried for an hour.
I am also thinking of Donnie Moore today.
It must be very hard to reach the top of your profession at such a young
age and then spend the rest of your life trying to do better.
August 25th, 2011 at 11:47 am
That's a great point Jason. Flanagan was a very good pitcher--the odds that he could be as good at anything else are fairly slim, and that's not meant to take anything away from him.
It's the same reason why star players rarely make good managers.
August 25th, 2011 at 11:49 am
JT-
Yikes.
Ultimately, I'm not too sympathetic to Flanagan's situation, if that was indeed the case. I don't mean to besmirch a man while the body is still warm, but it is hard to muster up much sadness for a man who left his family behind because he couldn't help turn around a sports franchise. I wonder how much the success he found early in life (not just winning a Cy Young or whatever, but being an elite, professional athlete who was rewarded handsomely before moving into managerial and front office positions) failed to prepare him to deal with the adversity that many people deal with on a regular basis.
I listened to an interesting podcast on suicide recently and they highlighted the huge gap in the suicide rate between whites and blacks and, when ignoring senior suicides, the gap between the wealthy and the poor. In both instances, it was much higher in the former than the latter. What I drew from this was that folks who have generally experienced more struggles and obstacles in life are better prepared to handle them ongoing, and less likely to choose the ultimate opt out.
August 25th, 2011 at 11:52 am
Can anyone remember a documentary that was produced back in the late 80's or early 90's called, I think, Hardball? Mike Flanagan was one of a number of guys, including Dock Ellis, Bobby Bonds and others, who talked for this show about behind the scenes stuff from baseball. It was about feuds, tricks, cheating, showboating, that type of stuff, and it was one of the funniest shows I have ever seen. Yet I have searched and searched online and never found even the merest hint that it ever existed. It used to air here in NE Ohio during rain delays. I would love to find a copy of it somewhere.
August 25th, 2011 at 11:56 am
BSK your earlier comments about mental illness are apt, but the other factor is depression. Depression is a very real condition and is linked strongly with suicide. When someone famous commits suicide, I think it's easy for us who did know him to sit back and say--what the hell was his problem? Why was he so selfish? He was rich & famous and had nothing to complain about. But most people who commit suicide are depressed. They don't see their own lives the way we outsiders might see them (nor are money or fame, etc, necessarily their problems). Depression can be paralyzing. It can be very difficult to see that you need help. Therapy might not be enough. Medication might not be enough. Your loves ones and close friends may not even recognize that you are depressed--many suicides are linked to depression but undocumented because those around the person didn't even know it.
In Flanagan's case, it's apparent that people around him knew he was suffering about the Orioles' performance and his perceived role in it. It's possible he felt that his name was permanently besmirched and he could never be an integrated and contributing member of society again. It seems quite possible that he was very depressed and in need of help, and may not have realized it. Is he a jerk for doing what he did? Maybe, I really have no idea. What I do know is that he needed help, and I'm sorry that he didn't have it, or if he had it, that it wasn't effective enough.
August 25th, 2011 at 11:58 am
I guess all I want to say on this issue is that human beings seem to be experts at determining how much pain and suffering other people are expected to handle, and how much effort other people are really putting into their own lives. And we don't even need to know them personally to determine those values for them.
August 25th, 2011 at 11:59 am
Anybody who makes the big leagues in any sport is at the very top of their profession. For those who make the show but never really make their mark, that must also be a special agony to deal with.
I just think that no matter what level of stardom one achieves, when you leave the sport, you then have to live the rest of your life, (maybe 60+ years)
knowing that your greatest achievements are behind you.
I previously mentioned a friend from high school who pitched about 6 years in the 90's. His career never really took off due to shoulder miseries. Although, he did have one season and more specifically one month where he won the Rolaids Relief Pitcher of the month award in the early 90's. Beat Eckersley by one point.
The frustrating thing is he proved that he could do it, but the shoulder robbed him of the long career he should have had. And of course millions of dollars.
Think of all the players most of us never heard of who have this same story.
I can't imagine the frustration of dealing with this.
August 25th, 2011 at 12:02 pm
This is gruesome. I was already sad, but this is heartbreaking, to feel responsible for so much that was so much out of his control. I'm just struggling for words.
Forgive my eloquence here, but f$%&#.
August 25th, 2011 at 12:02 pm
@32
Agree. Depression can be paralyzing, and nobody knows what
is happening in someone else's head.
@33
perfectly said.
August 25th, 2011 at 12:31 pm
If he was despondent over the state of the Orioles, wouldn't it have been easier just to fire Showalter?
(Sorry, maybe attempts at levity may not be appropriate, but I'm ingrained by habit to take cheap shots at Buck at every opportunity).
Johnny @#22
That's what I'm saying.
If he dropped dead of a heart attack mowing his lawn, that's sad and unfortunate because of his age.
If he ends his own life, sorry, but I can't be sympathetic because of what this will do to his family.
August 25th, 2011 at 12:39 pm
Andy-
Great point. Something I am wrestling with personally is my own tendency towards a lack of sympathy for people suffering from certain mental illnesses (I apologize now if I use any of this terminology in an inaccurate or offensive way). It is something I am not sure how I came to, especially since my job as an early childhood educator forces me to do a certain amount of arm chair psychology on a regular basis. Regardless, it is something I am become aware of and am attempting to dissect and understand better.
I tend, or at least have tended, to believe that many mental illnesses, depression among them, while very real and potentially very harmful to sufferers, are often over diagnosed or, more accurately, misdiagnosed (for every false positive I'm sure there is a false negative or, more likely, someone who never sought treatment). Am I right about this? I have no idea. Probably not. But, that is the position from which I start. Again, not a position I am defending. One I am still dissecting for myself. However, this leads me to believe that many people who "succumb" to mental illness are not really mentally ill but mentally weak. Yea, they might have problems, real problems, and might not be as well-equipped to deal with them as others. But, goddamnit, do something about it. My perspective is heavily colored by the privilege I hold by being someone who is of sound mind and body and generally a mentally strong person. I often make the mistake of holding others to the same standards I hold myself, which is not fair when you have been as fortunate as I have been (note: I am not trying to toot my own horn, but simply acknowledge and own the privilege that has lead me to where I am).
So, yea, my knee jerk reaction is not to sympathize. Especially when the person seemingly had so much going for him and so many other options he could have pursued. I don't know the depth of the problems that Flanagan suffered from. None of us do, which makes all of our analysis inherently suspect. It is just hard for me to generate sympathy for people who had so much and threw it away because things suddenly got hard. And, again, that is a very unfair view of Flanagan's situation. But I do feel confident saying that there are people who have dealt with far more than him, who had far few options than him, who chose better routes. Which further conflicts my attempts to gain a better perspective.
Confusing, to say the least. I apologize if my statements, here or previously, offended anyone in anyway. Situations like this force me to wrestle with my own understandings and viewpoints, as I'm sure they do for many others. Not having much/any firsthand explicit experience with mental illness, I have a lot of learning to do.
August 25th, 2011 at 12:48 pm
@BSK
When it comes to depression all bets are off. Believe me if it was just
a matter of "doing something about it"' we wouldn't be having this discussion.
My father is on the cusp of stage 5 Parkinson's disease.
He sleeps 20 hours a day and is "exhausted" all the time.
He needs a walker to get around and falls frequently.
He suffers hallucinations.
He has pain.
Finally, he appears to be in the early stages of dementia.
Recently he admitted that he is depressed. Is it any wonder?
I would urge all to have some sympathy when dealing with mental health
issues. If you are lucky that sympathy will never be empathy.
August 25th, 2011 at 1:05 pm
Jason-
Thank you. I obviously have a lot more to learn on the subject. And, as you said, hopefully I am fortunate enough to avoid doing it firsthand. Thank you for sharing your and your father's story. Best of luck to you both.
August 25th, 2011 at 1:09 pm
@32 Andy:
Extremely well put.
I hope this makes us all stop and think about the vitriol we sometimes post. That player we're calling a useless piece of cr*p is likely a sensitive and possibly fragile human being.
August 25th, 2011 at 1:10 pm
Jim Palmer's discussion of Flanagan gave some great insight. Flanagan was struggling, thought Weaver had lost confidence in him... Weaver was quoted as saying he had confidence in Flanagan and Flanagan's performance after that greatly improved.
That story was obviously one moment and does not necessarily describe the entire situation, but there are people who need a tremendous amount of attention and derive self-worth from the worth they get from others and further only understand extremes (confidence or no confidence with nothing in between).
You have to feel sorry for a person in a bad place, even if they took their own life because not being able to 'feel' or to only feel extremes must be an awful place to be.
You should feel sorry for the family, friends and fans of suicide victims (because they will forever wonder what they could've done different or better), but you also have to feel for Mike Flanagan in this situation. Obviously he was in a bad place and I would assume that most everyone's heart goes out to someone in a bad place. It just happens that no one could get to Flanagan and that is the true tragedy.
August 25th, 2011 at 1:29 pm
I was not aware Flanagan's death was suicide until I was reading through these notes. It seems incomprehensible that Flanagan would take his own life because he believed fans blamed him for the Orioles' current problems. As a person living outside of Baltimore, if someone asked me to name the key people responsible for the Orioles on-field failures over the past decade, Flanagan's name would not come to mind.
A question for Oriole fans in Baltimore: Was Flanagan blamed heavily by the fanbase?
Regardless, I doubt that was the reason he took his life. It sounds more like a symptom or an indicator of a greater emotional illness he was dealing with. Ken Rosenthal was a friend for years and had a few words on the topic in the link below.
http://fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/2011/08/25/ken-rosenthal-on-dc-report-of-mike-flanagans-suicide-disturbing/
Very sad. RIP.
August 25th, 2011 at 2:34 pm
BSK--although I find your remarks thoughtful and respectful, I think you're off the mark. Depression is not simply inability to deal with adversity. It's not a condition where one can simply "suck it up" and avoid.
Depression is a state of being that is brought about by years of complex thought patterns. These thought patterns are often misconceptions, generalizations, and catastrophizations. But they don't start out large or easily seen by anyone. They start off very small, and often times when we are young. A lot of depression can be traced back to how a person was raised and what when on it their home growing up. We all know ways in which we are unique because of our upbringings, and this is part of it. Over time, subtle misconceptions are reinforced, and the next time your brain is even quicker to go to the same misconception, and this time go a little further. Over time they build up--and often times these are very difficult to see at all. Over a period of years, it can result in someone thinking that they are unliked, or unsuccessful, or unattractive--when maybe only a small fraction of true evidence points in these directions and there is much to the contrary.
The situation Jason describes at #39 is something different where his father is depressed because of a substantial loss of life quality. Although there are many people who develop depression this way, the way I describe above is far more common.
Incidentally, SSRIs (the drugs most commonly prescribed for depression, such as Prozac, Zoloft, etc) essentially block or curtail this internal monologue, where misconceptions and generalizations occur unchecked. It prevents people from subconsciously going over their lives in their heads and, in the absence of feedback, coming up with fallacious and negative conclusions.
August 25th, 2011 at 2:37 pm
The key point that I left out of 44 above--is that depression occurs independent of true level of adversity, in the sense that it's not really related at all to adversity. The commenter above who noted that depression is less common among poorer classes is right, and the reasons are simple: these people tend to have less free time (time that wealthier people often use for reflection) and also tend to be harder physical workers. Nothing fights depression as well as exercise/work/labor.
August 25th, 2011 at 3:17 pm
Rest in peace, Mike Flanagan, and condolences to any of his friends & family who might happen to read this.
It seems to me a fairly reasonable Cy Young award voting. Only John had a lower ERA and more innings than Flanagan had, and John allowed even more unearned runs than Flanagan did. I understand that ideally, we would have liked the Cy Young voters to subtract some credit for pitchers playing in front of good defenses and in parks that favor batters (and the converse), but I can't get excited by this one.
Like others, it sometimes is difficult for me to eyeball how a guy can be 18th among AL pitchers in WAR when his surface stats like reasonable, but I've not spent to time to walk through the WAR calculation again today.
August 25th, 2011 at 3:23 pm
The coroner's report has just come out and says that indications inside the home are that Flanagan had concerns about financial issues.
August 25th, 2011 at 4:14 pm
In 1979 the numbers for Flanagan, Tommy John, and Guidry were all very close.
Flanagan had 23 wins compared to 21 for John and 18 for Guidry, but Guidry's 2.78 ERA and John's 2.96 were both better than Flanagan's 3.08.
Flanagan started more games (38) than John (36) and Guidry (30), but John pitched more innings (276.1) than Flanagan (265.2), while giving up the same amount of earned runs.
Guidry gets the edge in strikeouts with 201 to Flanagan's 190, and the ERA+ favors Guidry (146) and John (137) over Flanagan (131).
If I had a vote based purely on stats, my vote would have gone to Tommy John, but the fact that Flanagan pitched for a team that went to the World Series probably swayed the voters in his favor.
I realize that all votes are cast prior to the start of playoffs, but the fact remains that Baltimore won 102 games that year, and won the division by 8 games over Milwaukee, 11.5 over Boston, and 13.5 over New York.
While a compelling case can be made either way, when the stats are that close, the player on the best team gets the nod.
August 25th, 2011 at 4:19 pm
I also didn't know any details until reading here. Now, I've just read a nice tribute by ESPN's Tim Kurkjian. Very sad day for Oriole fans and anyone associated with him or his family.
August 25th, 2011 at 4:43 pm
Andy-
If I wasn't clear (and I probably wasn't), part of the line of thinking behind my post was to expose the "wrongness" of my thinking. I'm coming to understand, intellectually, that my perceptions on depression specifically and mental illness in general are off base and ill-informed. What I'm struggling to do is incorporate that into my worldview, which I think is much harder to do. I'm trying to really understand the issue so that my knee-jerk reaction is no longer, "He took the easy way out," which is wrong and unfair in probably 99% of cases. So, yes, describing me as off the mark is probably the gentlest way of putting it. I appreciate your patience and your thoughtful explanation. While I'm sure that I have known, and probably known well, people who struggled with mental illness and/or depression (point of clarification: is depression considered a mental illness?), I haven't personally experienced somebody experiencing it, if that makes sense. I haven't seen the toll it takes on a person or heard, firsthand, what it is like to be in that state. I suppose I would say I am fortunate in this regard, though it has obviously left me ignorant and uninformed, which consequently lead to me being misinformed. Lots to unpack here for me. Again, I appreciate the patience from all those here and apologize if my comments in any way offended anyone.
August 25th, 2011 at 5:44 pm
is depression considered a mental illness?
Technically, depression and something like schizophrenia are both types of "mental disorders" as classified by the DSM-IV. Depression would be a "mood disorder" and schizophrenia is a "psychotic disorder."
August 25th, 2011 at 6:25 pm
While there's no certain idea what causes depression, the permissive hypothesis is the leading one right now. It says that for largely biological reasons that brain's serotonin levels drop.
This leads to a rather peculiar thing. If you've real reason to be sad about something, your brain drops its serotonin levels, which kicks off the usual physical effects of being sad until you get to grips with whatever is bothering you and they come back up again. In depression you're sad for no reason at all and what ends up happening is, without realizing you're doing it, you pick some stressful thing in your life and focus on that as the cause. Our minds basically can't take sadness for no reason and are driven to pick something sad-making as the actual reason.
So the arrow of causality is flipped and you start stressing out over things that are not actually that big a deal. And since the sadness isn't being caused by what you think it is, you get into this spiral of problems because none of your usual coping strategies actually help. Your brain is malfunctioning and not releasing enough serotonin, and that's damned hard to fix without medical intervention -- fixing what you think is making you sad is useless since it's not actually the problem. At best all that happens is you start focusing on the next thing in your life that your mind thinks might be the culprit. And we all have an endless supply of things that bug us; it's just the human condition.
I don't think most people understand that about a lot of suicides. Some people do commit suicide because of external stresses, but much more often they commit suicide directly because they're depressed -- but the illness fools them into thinking it's because of financial stress, or a relationship that's fallen apart, or whatever, even to the point that that's what they talk about in suicide letters and the like. People take what is said in those, or what the suicide had said to them in the days before their death, as gospel, when the depressed usually have very poor insight into why they feel they way they do.
August 25th, 2011 at 6:29 pm
Forgot to put my favorite way of putting it at the end there: If depression is caused by one's brain not producing enough serotonin (and that is, admittedly, not proven at the moment) it makes as much sense to dismiss or scorn a suicide as it does to curse out a diabetic because their pancreas doesn't make enough insulin.
August 25th, 2011 at 6:37 pm
@ Andy,
You can really be ignorant sometimes.
My "misspelling" - so aptly pointed out by you, is an example of the humblest of the figures of speech: metaplasmus, the purposeful misspelling of a word. More technically speaking, metaplasmus involves the addition, omission, substitution, or arrangement of one or more letters in a word to achieve some poetic effect, usually a sound effect and/or comical dialectal inferences.
Also I am really disappointed and shocked by some of the posts involving the suicide of Flanagan.
It is 2011, and a bunch of smart people are still perceiving suicide as a weakness!?!?!?
Andy, do you really need to point out that you were not sorry for Mike Flanagan?
Are you that ignorant?
Depression is a physical problem caused by neuron-receptors under or over preforming. Autopsies consistently find an absence of seretonin in the blood-brain of victims. Yes victims! It is like being angry at someone from dying of cancer.
Taking one's own life must be one of the most awful human experiences. I doubt Flanagan thought he was hurting his family. Most victims of suicide feel that not only their family, but the world would be better off without them.
I am sure Flanagan loved his family - so much so, that his sickness led him to believe they would be better off without him.
The term "took one's life" is idiotic. You are not "taking" anything, because there is no one there to receive. A victim is giving his life. For right or wrong.
The stigma of mental illness as weakness is the last acceptable prejudice in this country. Trust me, this was not a rash decision. This was not a selfish decision. This was a man lost for a long time, suffering, suffering from a physical problem, out of his control. And to imply he did not seek medical help is just more ignorance. Of course someone delusional won't voluntarily seek treatment, or even know he needs it.
Mike was killed by a society that has ignored, made fun of, labeled and marginalized a real problem.
The reason I say this... is I lost a family member to this disease. A disease, not a weakness, not selfishness.
August 25th, 2011 at 6:45 pm
I would have voted for Guidry as well. It should be noted that Gator had two saves that year as he volunteered to go to the bullpen when Goose Gossage was injured. Can you imagine a pitcher that went 25-3 volunteering to go to the bullpen the next year?
August 25th, 2011 at 6:56 pm
@39...Jason, my father has Parkinson's as well, even further along than yours. He wants to die but does not have the capacity to kill himself though I wish he did. If I was not worried about my own freedom I would put him out of his misery myself. I don't know if your father still has his appetite but let me give some advice. If he loses his appetite do not agree to any treatment to stimulate it. My mom knew that pop wanted to go but she agreed to the stimulants because she felt it was the humane and expected thing to do. Now, even though he no longer receives the stimulants, instead of slipping away after a few days he has lingered for months w/no end in sight.
August 25th, 2011 at 7:17 pm
BSK to me you are coming across as thoughtful and compassionate.
You almost certainly have known (and do know) people suffering from depression. It doesn't necessarily manifest itself as somebody who is low-energy, unmotivated, can't get out of bed, etc. Sometimes it causes people to be standoffish, or jerks, or act in other ways that are perceived as strange. Sometimes it makes people into jokesters. Other than those people you know very well (such as those you co-habitate with) you'd probably have a very tough time recognizing it as such.
August 25th, 2011 at 7:19 pm
Duke, you are way out of line. I do feel sorry for Flanagan--I only pointed out to the commenter who was attacking me that I didn't specifically say that in my previous post. I can't imagine how you can read what I've written above and don't think I'm sympathetic to him and to people who commit suicide in general.
August 25th, 2011 at 7:28 pm
This has been a totally unexpected place to find fascinating and well thought out discussion on suicide. I probably have a Mike Flanagan Topps or Donruss card somewhere, from near the end of his career, but B-R has gone way above and beyond statistics in this (although the Cy Young discussion isn't bad, either).
To get a bit obvious, there is probably more to any depression that was felt by Mr. Flanagan than baseball, and to get a bit preachy, the fact is that none of us will ever really know for sure what exactly was going on in his head at the end, whether baseball, money or whatever else it might have been. The precise thoughts, feelings, struggles, impulses, mental illness and combination of any and all of the above going through the head of any suicide- what can we really know of it?
For us as baseball fans and sports fans, what does it say that a man with a long and respected career in the sport can (possibly) have killed himself over his team's struggles and his part in them? Sorry he couldn't have come up incidentally in a pure stats column. Hope it's sooner rather than later that the Orioles get to remember the guy, and other great Orioles, at a World Series, not that that would make much difference for his friends and family.
@39; thanks to Jason for a heck of a post; sympathy to him and all who have these things touching their lives. @54Duke, @56Howard.
August 25th, 2011 at 7:33 pm
First, I think Flanagan's ridiculously low WAR in 79 is a reminder that no single statistical measure is perfect and that we need to look at the whole picture. I suspect that in 79 I too would have voted for Flanagan and might well do so even now.
Second, there are some great posts here on depression, particularly Paul @ 52 does a great job of describing how it effects people and Duke @ 54 does a great job of describing the underlying disease (although I think he was a little too harsh in singling out Andy). I would just add that in many cases simply taking a pill is not enough to treat the condition and that dealing with this insidious disease is sometimes more difficult than we can imagine. I lost a friend of 30 plus years to this a few years back and no one- not me, not his wife or kids, not his twin sister, no one- saw it coming.
August 25th, 2011 at 10:19 pm
OFF TOPIC - POST IDEA***
THe 1st game for the newest DBacks, Hill & McDonald, featured Ryan ROberts at 3B, McDonald at SS, Hill at 2B and Lyle Overbay at 1B. Those 4 started a game together at those same positions on 5/27/07 for the BLue Jays. (They also all started one other game together on 5/16/07 but with Roberts in LF).
I have to wonder - how common is that? At first blush it seems like something that has probably happened a bunch but the more I think about it, the more I think it's probably pretty rare. Any thoughts?
August 25th, 2011 at 10:22 pm
Anon, interesting thought. I haven't the foggiest idea about the answer.
August 26th, 2011 at 12:49 am
Suicide is such a difficult topic...
The song "Elle G." is a haunting tale of a young girl who takes her own life.
"Silence all, now go to sleep,
The water's free, the well is deep.
How can we return,
That which we never could earn?"
The song was written by a friend who was trying to answer the question, "Why?" We scramble for what we think is the correct answer in the same way we formulate arguments as to who should have won the 19__ MVP race, or who should or should not be in the Hall of Fame.
Life is hard. And that is why I think Baseball is such a welcome release to the things in everyday life that cause us worry. I personally feel much better the next day when I choose to bury myself in the career statistics of Mariano Rivera or Ted Williams than I do when I choose other ways to deal with my stress.
I do not know why Mike Flanagan took his own life. Neither does anyone else. I just wish he didn't
August 26th, 2011 at 1:14 am
@52, very interesting input on depression.
@54, way over the line and broad assumptions being made on your part.
August 26th, 2011 at 1:33 am
I don't see the real tragedy here. He killed himself, no one forced him to do it, he did it of his own accord. A tragedy is something beyond your control (getting hit by a car, or being hit with a stray bullet). Taking a gun, pointing it at your head, and pulling the trigger doesn't sound like something that is beyond your control. On the plus side, at least he didn't do that 'ol murder/suicide bit, where the person decides to take his wife and kids with him to the afterlife. I skimmed through these posts and thoughts about suicide and mental illness. I don't know all the details, but it seemed Flanagan was having financial troubles (there may have been other factors involved). If he was that miserable with his life, it was his life to take, as long as he didn't shoot up a bunch of people before he checked out.
August 26th, 2011 at 4:28 am
Skimmng rarely provides any great depth of understanding, intellectually or emotionally Mr. Stone. There are many thoughtful, enlightening posts here, including Andy's.
Imagine just having the day of your life with the most physical pain & suffering-& you at feel that every day, with zero hope of relief. Does not matter if that pain is psychological, only understand that the very nature of the human mind is to accomplish brute survival. It takes great training to reroute emotional & psychological pain, even absent any pathology.
There is no way to know the whole quality & quantity of pain of someone. And no reason that great compassion should not extend to them. We are largely just fortunate that we usually make it intact to old age without being taken down by inner or outer circumstances.
We are largely still kids who take for granted that life is not insufferable. We can have personal responsibility & still realize that largely we are just lucky to avoid certain illnesses like depression. Even our earned strength & coping mechanisms are possible only due to a delicate balance of biological conditions Without the Serotonin, thyroid, or whatever, we would be like zombies WHATEVER our willpower.
There but for the Grace of God applies, or the same humble sentiment for atheists like me.
August 26th, 2011 at 7:41 am
BSK, one thing that occurred to me is that you're probably an unofficial expert in child psychology for toddlers--you probably have an excellent grasp of concepts like reinforcement, striving for independence, as well as different development tracks for verbal skills, emotional skills, motor skills, etc. Only a fraction of this stuff applies to issues like depression, which tend to be extremely long-term in terms of causes and effects and involve thousands upon thousands of internal thoughts and external interactions. It's sort of the opposite of toddlers, who tend to be fairly straightforward in terms of stimulus response.
August 26th, 2011 at 12:19 pm
Andy-
Good point. In mentioning my work with children, I was highlighting the fact that I recognize and utilize psychology. There are still many people who think that psychology, and the social sciences in general, are pure bunk. Professionaly, I obviously don't have that perspective. I embrace the work of pscyhologists in understanding and working with my students. Yet, when dealing with adults, my perspective is otherwise. It is a certain cognitive dissonance that I can't explain and is a bit befuddling. Again, I have to unpack that and make sense of it and hopefully start to live what I know to be true. Conversations like this are a huge step.
August 26th, 2011 at 12:24 pm
BSK, I'm not sure it can be cognitive dissonance if your recognize it as such!
One sees a lot of cognitive dissonance in sports. Perhaps the greatest recent example in baseball was when McGwire said he was sure that steroids did not help him hit homers. I sensed that he truly believed that even though it is so clearly ludicrous (at the very least they helped him work out more, which clearly helped him hit homers)--and so therefore the only explanation is cognitive dissonance. To deal with the guilt of cheating, he probably convinced himself that it wasn't actually helping him.
August 26th, 2011 at 12:26 pm
Very interesting dialogue. Clearly though, depression is not something that you can just will yourself through, although that mindset can help some. While adversity can be a trigger, it's much more complex than that. It's much more insidious and harder to treat b/c of the brains complexities. Whether we know it or not, all of us know someone that suffers from it.....and, anyone that ends their life because they see no hope or way out, is indeed a tragedy of sorts...Depression manifests itself in many ways, some of which are not obvious at all. In fact, it can be manifested in ways that are opposite than what most look for. Yes, it's good that Mr. Flanagan didn't take the lives of others along the way, but still, this was a tragic outcome, make no mistake.....and in many ways it speaks deeper about the society we live in. Often people that take their own life are people that care tremendously for others, and/or they take on too much of the blame for something.........It has always struck me, and I'm not placing any blame whatsoever, that how much does uncompassionate people/society contribute to someone ultimately ending their lives....and, I don't mean in it a way that friends or family around Mr. Flanagan weren't compassionate.....I mean it more in a way of how overall society looks and acts...how we still live in society of people that think you can just will yourself through it or that the person was weak or that the person didn't care or that we all deal with adversity and the person was just plain stupid....or even, the person had the right to do that. Many of these things are often in fact just not true about the person....but, it's easy for the machoman to say that was stupid and how selfish or he/she had the right. It's this sort of mindset that permeates much of the society we live in today....and it['s only get worse in many ways......it's this mindset that creates and even reinforces feelings of isolation. People think it's a good thing to not negotiate, to not listen to others, to strong-arm one another nowadays, place blame on others to save one's own arse. Negotiating is seen almost as a something that's weak minded nowadays. Sorry for the rambling.
August 26th, 2011 at 1:16 pm
As a (long suffering) Orioles' fan I can comment on how he's seen in Baltimore.
I met him in the early 80s - he was a nice enough guy. I enjoyed his broadcasting and stories - calm, knowledgeable, self deprecating, often funny comments, not talking constantly about how good he was (Jim Palmer takes care of that).
There are some that give him a part, though a small role, in why the Orioles have continued to struggle. #1 on that list is Peter Angelos, far and away the reason why this team is so terrible. I was always confused at the "dual GM" thing he did with Flanagan and Duquette - obviously Flanagan didn't cause that and I always thought that setup limited either's ability to be effective. Angelos also did not let any GM spend much money on big name players in their prime, especially pitchers. Secondary causes are terrible lack of depth in the minors, bad coaching on all levels, terrible scouting (I've never seen a team so overrate its prospects). If there is blame to assign, Flanny is way, way down the list.
That being said, I do believe Flanny was GM the last time the Orioles managed to bring a big name in DURING HIS PRIME (Miguel Tejada, 2003).
Sure Flanagan wasn't perfect. Flanagan did not fire Davey Johnson in 1997. He didn't sign Albert Belle and Brady Anderson to huge contracts that they came nowhere close to earning. He didn't cause Mike Mussina to flee. He also was not the GM who called one team inquiring about a player they no longer had (that was Syd Thrift). He did not purge the underachieving team of all its stars in 2000. He did not convince Mark Teixeira to sign with NYY. He also did not sign scrap heap players such as Garrett Atkins or come in saying "oh just let me work, you'll see results in 3 years...I mean 4...I mean 5" while producting no results, while leaving no top tier talent anywhere in the minors guaranteeing the Orioles will continue to stink for years to come. (I am not a McFail fan).
I feel sorry for his family and others he left behind.
Regarding depression, it is like chronic pain, it is something you can't see that may never go away. People have coping mechanisms such as humor, or eating, or playing sports, or art. It can also be hidden by a person who is a good actor so that even close family and trained professionals can't detect it until disclosed by the person who has it. Most suffer in silence, dealing with their inner demons, draining their energy trying to appear "normal" or "strong" by not discussing it, trapped in circular thinking from which there is no escape. It is a numb existence, sadness and disappointment reign...often people get backed into a corner where death becomes their only escape.
RIP Flanny
August 26th, 2011 at 1:20 pm
@71
Thank you, Kevin, for an informative and compassionate post.
The circumstances of the two are likely very different, but remember Hideki Irabu in July. This brings the number of "baseball" suicides this year, sadly, to two.
August 26th, 2011 at 8:53 pm
@61
There is a possibility that it could have happened between 1955-1963 when the Yankees and Athletics were trading players like mad.
August 27th, 2011 at 2:21 am
@Mike Felber: I don't need to read every post to make an intelligent statement on an issue, sir (a knuckleheaded statement on your part). Several good points and perspectives have been brought up (too many to list) as I was not being dismissive of any of them. Feeling sorry for someone who has chronic depression will not stop that person from blasting their brains out. If someone is at the level and they are ready to kill themselves, they would probably have to be under heavy meds and rendered docile to prevent them from jumping off a bridge. You mentioned how we are fortunate not to be take down by'Inner and outer circumstances' your wordiness knows no boundaries. how about 'Life'. It happens. Some can deal during a rough time. Some can't. Mike Flanagan could not deal. It's that simple. I agree with Matt who expressed sympathy for the family of Mike Flanagan,that's where it should go, as for Mike Flanagan himself......not so much.
August 27th, 2011 at 5:30 pm
If someone is at the level and they are ready to kill themselves, they would probably have to be under heavy meds and rendered docile to prevent them from jumping off a bridge.
This is not true. The decision to kill oneself is often made at a moment of extreme despair and whether it succeeds depends on what means are readily available. I think I read Flanagan shot himself? If he didn't have easy access to a gun at that moment, he'd probably still be alive. He wouldn't be driving around looking for a tall building or a bottle of pills.
I don't need to read every post to make an intelligent statement on an issue
Let us know when you make one.
August 27th, 2011 at 8:50 pm
Mr. Stone, you show little understanding or sympathy to the plight of mental illness. I will add to JT's statement that depressed folks can be heavily medicate, poorly medicated, under no treatment, stopped taking their meds...And the definition of a Tragedy does not turn on whether something can be prevented or not.
You should read all of what is written above. You think all of us are just deluded softies, & their is no rational cause to have sympathy for Mr. Flanagan also?
I can be wordy sometimes, what you quoted was not at all so. Wrong & would not be relevant even if I had used too many words. Who knows if Mr. Flanagan could have been helped. But sympathy & understanding WILL help some stay alive & get better.
At any rate it is just an integral part of what makes us fully human.
August 27th, 2011 at 11:26 pm
@Johnny Twisto congratulations at coming across as a smug prick. Note, I used the would 'probably' it was not an absolute statemtent. What about people who attempt suicide multiple times? I guess they have multiple spontaneous moments of despair. If Flanagan was in that moment, if not a gun, it would have been a rope or an OD on pills. He would have found a way. Now go pat yourself on the back for being the pompous twit you are. @ Mike Felber stop thinking in such textbook terms...you think Mike Flanagan didn't have support and sympathy from his family, you think that they didn't try to help him during his depression (I'm sure they did). You couldn't be more wrong as to what a tragedy is. If you drink heavily for two years and then die of liver cancer, it's no tragedy, it's self-inflicted of one's own volition. Now, if this same person gets behind the wheel of a car and ends a high school students life....that is a tragedy. See the difference? If you can't think in those terms and are anchored by only what you've regurgiated from textbooks,I can't make it anymore clear. Alright, everyone have fun playing amateur psychiatrists. I can re-hash the DSM IV as well. A potentially interesting discussion squashed by droll rhetoric...what a bunch of bores.
August 28th, 2011 at 1:05 am
congratulations at coming across as a smug prick.
It's quite deserved, and you're very welcome.
What about people who attempt suicide multiple times? I guess they have multiple spontaneous moments of despair.
I guess so. And you'd have multiple reasons for contempt.
Note, I used the would 'probably' it was not an absolute statemtent.
As did I.
you think Mike Flanagan didn't have support and sympathy from his family, you think that they didn't try to help him during his depression (I'm sure they did).
I doubt Mr. Felber knows. And I doubt you know either. Fortunately, you can still act like you do.
if this same person gets behind the wheel of a car and ends a high school students life....that is a tragedy. See the difference?
I see *a* difference.
what a bunch of bores.
Bye.