Thome tags two to reach 600 HRs
Posted by John Autin on August 15, 2011
Tonight in Detroit, Jim Thome homered in the 6th and 7th innings to become the 8th player in MLB history with 600 HRs. His 5 RBI led the Twins to a 9-6 victory.
It's fitting that Thome reached this major milestone against the Tigers. He's hit 65 HRs in 211 games against Detroit, his most against any opponent and an average of 50 HRs per 162 games.
Thome has homered against all 30 teams and in 38 different MLB parks. Surprisingly, he has never homered in 10 games at Coors Field.
His 1st HR came in 1991, a few weeks past his 21st birthday, in his 95th plate appearance -- a go-ahead 2-run shot in the 9th off Yankee closer Steve Farr. Cleveland lost 105 games that year, the most in franchise history. But by the time Thome cracked the starting lineup in '94, they were one of the best teams in the game, and with Thome they enjoyed the longest run of success in club history, winning 6 division titles and 2 pennants in 7 years.
Tonight was his 48th career multi-HR game, tying him with Juan Gonzalez for 15th on that list.
Thome will likely be in the lineup again Tuesday against Justin Verlander. In 60 career PAs against the Tigers' ace, Thome has 7 HRs and 14 walks. He also feasted on Roger Clemens, with 8 HRs and a 1.293 OPS in 73 PAs.
The pitcher who rang him up the most was former Twins standout Brad Radke, with 21 Ks in 79 trips. Eddie Guardado probably game Thome the most trouble, fanning him 20 times in 35 trips, with no HRs. The pitcher he faced the most without going deep was Tim Belcher, who held Thome to 9 singles in 55 trips. Among active players, A.J. Burnett leads with 38 homerless showdowns.
Thome has homered against 399 different pitchers, counting tonight's first-time victims, righty Rick Porcello and lefty Daniel Schlereth, who is the 16th pitcher against whom Thome has homered in his only PA(s).
Thome's platoon differential is well known. His BA was 54 points higher against righties before tonight (.293-.239), and his OPS was 274 points higher (1.040-.766).
He has 12 game-ending HRs, including a 2002 walk-off salami against the Tigers (of course).
The 600 HRs does not include his 17 HRs in 67 postseason games, which ranks 6th in MLB history. He also hit 52 HRs in the minors, though he did not connect at all in his first pro year, 55 games in the Gulf Coast League at the tender age of 18. As I recall, Thome has given a lot of credit to Phillies manager Charlie Manuel, who managed him at AAA, for hitting advice that helped him unleash his power.
Thome also ranks among the all-time top 50 in RBI, total bases, extra-base hits, OBP, SLG, OPS and OPS+, walks and strikeouts, and one or two other things. He won just one HR title, in his first year with the Phillies.
August 16th, 2011 at 12:18 am
Congrats to Thome, a class act.
Now if A-Rod can get back in the lineup by the end of the week when the Yanks visit the Twins, it will be the first AL game featuring two 600 HR guys.
August 16th, 2011 at 12:30 am
Doug, was it you who much earlier in the season projected that Thome might reach 600 by this August series with the Yankees? I remember at the time it seemed unlikely. Not sure why, as he's only at 11 HR now, but I guess he is playing more now than he was before.
August 16th, 2011 at 12:46 am
As a mostly National League fan, and a bit of an old fogy, even now after almost 40 years of the DH rule I still find myself unable to treat the numerical accomplishments of longtime DH guys on an apples-to-apples comparison basis to guys who played on defense their whole careers. Thome has had 409 career homers playing roles other than DH, tied for 34th all-time in that category. Certainly that's not fully fair as a proper ranking either, as Thome has been a good enough hitter for many of his DH years that if DH were not an option he surely would have found a spot in the field for some club and increased his non-DH homer total. But I still can't quite get my head around treating his 193 homers hit as a DH as really equal in a career accomplishment sense to those hit by others who actually had defensive positions.
August 16th, 2011 at 12:50 am
Zambrano "In the bottom of my heart, I will be a Cubbie forever." You gotta love the guy.
August 16th, 2011 at 12:52 am
Birtelcom, I agree. Beyond any steroids issues, the ability of modern players to extend their careers, or simply get some extra rest, by DHing has to be considered when comparing their career totals to those of the past.
Timmy, no I don't.
August 16th, 2011 at 12:53 am
Fixed?
August 16th, 2011 at 12:53 am
So happy to see Thome get 600. As a Twins fan, I've seen him over the last two years and he is a class act. Couldn't ask for a nicer guy. I don't care if it's a sensitive subject among fans of baseball, but Thome did it naturally, unlike 3 of the other 600 HR players. I can't believe this fantastic milestone hasn't gotten more attention
August 16th, 2011 at 12:53 am
TIMMY!!!! Close your tags!
August 16th, 2011 at 1:00 am
If you have ESPN Insider (I don't), you can see who is projected to have a shot at 600:
http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/story?id=6847245&_slug_=mlb-projecting-600-home-run-hitter&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fmlb%2fstory%3fid%3d6847245%26_slug_%3dmlb-projecting-600-home-run-hitter
August 16th, 2011 at 1:32 am
If the writers block Thome with either innuendo about PEDs (with absolutely no evidence) and/or moronic babble about him being an "accumulator" (ignoring his fearsome rate numbers along with the counting stats), they either ought to be stripped of the vote or the Hall itself needs to be abandoned as the gatekeeper of immortality for MLB. Bagwell and Raines have been intolerable enough derelictions of duty--keeping Thome out should be considered the capital offense line for the BBWAA if they dare to cross it.
August 16th, 2011 at 1:38 am
I saw a replay of Thome's first career HR tonight and he looked much smaller than he does now. That's all the evidence I need.
August 16th, 2011 at 2:28 am
I want to talk about Carlos Zambrano. He had a bad day. Zambrano did not endanger the safety of any of his teammates or other Cubs' employees, nor did he make any threatening comments to anyone. Would a reasonable person assume he was really retiring or quitting on his team, or would a reasonable person assume he was just momentarily upset and let his emotions get to him, as might happen to a lot people who get frustrated at their jobs?
August 16th, 2011 at 2:41 am
@ 5 "Beyond any steroids issues, the ability of modern players to extend their careers, or simply get some extra rest, by DHing has to be considered when comparing their career totals to those of the past."
I also think Babe Ruth's numbers should be considered because he did not play with Latinos, blacks, etc (I don't really think this)
EVERY era has some advantage over another. At some point, we just need to get over that fact and enjoy these things for what they are: a great accomplishment. Stop trying to diminish everything. Each of Ruth's 714 are worth no more than each of Thome's 600.
August 16th, 2011 at 2:41 am
Tim, what does that have to do with Jim Thome?
August 16th, 2011 at 2:44 am
Congrats to Jim Thome: a class act and one helluva power hitter and OBP-machine! And thanks to JA for the fun, relevant trivia about the man
August 16th, 2011 at 3:10 am
@2, JT
Yes, JT, that was me who speculated that the upcoming Twins/Yankees series could be a possible first-ever AL game with two 600 HR hitters. At the time, Thome had just come off his first stint on the DL, so I sent in a blog that Andy was kind enough to post detailing dates of various first milestone HR games (e.g. first game with 4 guys at 300 HR, and various other permutations). Maybe you remember that post?
When Thome went on the DL a second time, I figured the date with A-Rod might not happen in 2011, and maybe not at all if Thome got to 600 after the Yankee seeries but before the end of the year, and then decided to retire. Then, when A-Rod went on the the DL, I figured it just wasn't meant to be.
But, now it's looking pretty good for this weekend, assuming A-Rod gets through his tune-ups okay.
August 16th, 2011 at 5:08 am
@14
Rich, Tim is just citing one of Thome's chumps on his way to 600. Not that it's a major accomplishment even given the small sample size.
@12
Tim, a reasonable person should assume Crylos should pitch more like the ace he's getting paid for, something he hasn't been even remotely close to doing.. I'm all for any bad contract player/pitcher for Zambrano trade at this point. Nothing's worse than having to deal with a player with antics who stinks. Crylos has run his course. Besides, we Cubs fans could use some different overpaid player to add to our extensive collection, couldn't we?
August 16th, 2011 at 6:37 am
I closed Timmy's tag.
August 16th, 2011 at 8:18 am
It doesn't matter if a guy played a position or was a DH, it doesn't matter if they did PEDS or greenies or bet on the game, once the numbers are in place that's it. They can't be taken away.
All the BS about asterisk this, legit that is just a whole bunch of whining.
August 16th, 2011 at 8:19 am
JT @11. Thome was smaller at 20 than he is at 40. That's "all the evidence you need" to show he was a steroid user? Um, did you take a look at the replay last night, when his dad came on the field? Apparently his older brother is enormous. Looks like they grow them big in Thome-land. There's been no credible evidence, at least so far, that he used anything. I'm hoping it stays that way. As to the argument that he hit 191 home runs as a DH, I think that's a reasonable one to advance, but it's also one that would have to be applied across the spectrum to any player who DH''s at all. DH has been around since 1973, and while we can mentally adjust batting stats somewhat downward, you can't just wipe them out entirely. Jim Rice played over 500 games at DH, Paul Molitor over 1100. I think Thome belongs in the Hall. Keeping him out would require a series of rationalizations which, in the aggregate, would be unfair to apply to any player.
August 16th, 2011 at 8:49 am
@ Mike L. well said my good man! As far as I'm concerned, the DH'r is NO different than being a Closer..they're both "specialists" are they not? Yet, the HOF has nooooo problem voting in the likes of Gossage prior to Blyleven did they? Hypocrisy is rampant if you ask me.
August 16th, 2011 at 9:48 am
WAR already takes into account the relative value of a DH vs. a player at a premium defensive position. Different stats measure different contexts - we might have mentioned something or other like that in a previous thread.
@Timmy - Big Z didn't threaten any fellow Cubbies.... this time. He's gone bughouse in the dugout before this, however. This is a matter of accumulated incidents, not one way-out-of-character moment.
August 16th, 2011 at 10:14 am
Congrats to Thome, hitting his first multi-homer game since may 23 and his first longball in over a week.
I know this has nothing to do with Thome, but I noticed that Adam Dunn is in the middle of what I believe to be an mlb record streak. He has had 15 hrs and 150 strikeouts every year since 2004 (7 years) and if he continues his pace this year he could reach 15 and will most definitely reach 150 strikeouts again. The second longest streak reaching these requirements was by Sammy Sosa, who did between 97-01. Does anyone else know of streak of 5+ years with 15 homeruns and 150 whiffs in the same season.
August 16th, 2011 at 10:29 am
@23 Rob Deer did it five times in six years with a "fail" of only 147 strike outs in the fifth year. Not quite there, but very impressive.
August 16th, 2011 at 10:34 am
@20, Mike L -- I believe Johnny T. was being facetious in that line about Thome's size. He's been known to tweak those who rely on visual evidence of PED use, and rightly so.
August 16th, 2011 at 10:44 am
@25 JA. My bad. I think I was reacting in part to a comment made by my wife, who, when I mentioned I weighed more than when we got married 25 years ago, said "four pounds? shut up, Michael". We do thicken as we age.......
August 16th, 2011 at 10:56 am
Bravo to Jim Thome for his accomplishment! He has always been one of my favorite players, and I'd love to see him hit many more before he begins his countdown to Cooperstown...
Bravo to Freud (#19) for telling it like it is! I'd love to tell people where to shove their ass-tericks....
Boo to Timmy for souring the post celebrating one of baseball's classiest human beings by bringing up the name of one of its unclassiest jerks...
August 16th, 2011 at 11:20 am
re DH homers as not as 'count-worthy' as 1b homers.
Should pinch-hit home-runs be discounted. too?
August 16th, 2011 at 12:03 pm
Tim Wakefield is a LOT bigger now then when he first started...It must be the juice!! ( Or the beer )
August 16th, 2011 at 12:10 pm
Comments #21 and #28 argue (in repsonse to my original comment at #3 regarding Thome's almost 200 career homers hit as a DH) that DHing is comparable to pinch hitting or to closing in relief. But it is impossible to accumulate huge career numbers such as 500 homers or 3000 Ks as a pinch-hitter or a closer because the rules of the game limit the number of opportunities those specialists accumulate.
The DH is a specialist who by a unique exception in the rules gets to accumulate a full complement of PAs on offense, without having to be able to man a defensive position. In that respect the rules give a huge advantage, with regard to accumulating career numbers, to a DH as compared to a pinch-hitter or ninth-inning closer. I don't at all devalue Thome's (very small number of) homers hit as a pinch hitter. The tradeoff for his hitting as a pinch-hitter is that he only gets one PA that way in a game -- so while he benefits from the opportunity to hit without playing defense, he also incurs the cost (a one PA per game limit). As a DH, however, he gets the benefit without the cost. To me that means those DH homers shine, as a mark of career accumulation greatness, a bit less brightly than homers hit by guys who played both offense and defense through all or almost all of their careers.
August 16th, 2011 at 12:51 pm
Birtelcom, do you think that Thome could not have played an acceptable first base in 2006 or 2007?
Note that his dWAR was positive in each of the 3 prior seasons. And even if the DH wasn't available and he was a butcher afield, surely one of the 30 teams would have gladly made that tradeoff to get his 150 OPS+ in the lineup.
I would argue that no matter how many HRs Thome actually hit while DHing, the existence of that role has not added more than 30-40 HRs to his career total. He clearly hit well enough in 2006-07 to be an everyday 1B, even if he'd wielded an iron glove. Since 2008, he's hit 93 HRs while averaging about 400 PAs a year. If the DH were not available, I think he still could have gotten 250 PAs/year in the role of a platoon 1B (getting lifted for defense in the late innings) and pinch-hitter.
August 16th, 2011 at 3:00 pm
Birtelcom, first of all, I agree with John Autin that Thome could have played in the field in 2006-7. And he hit 409 of them as a position player as it was. But more to your point about there being a "unique exemption", this has been the case for almost 40 years. Managers work around the DH, GM's trade for them, etc. You can be a purist and decry the advent of the position, but you can't simply pretend these players didn't exist. I can understand the idea that, given two equal sets of stats, you want to give a leg up to the position player. But it's impossible to disaggregate the contributions of the DH, not just cumulatively, but in-game. Virtually every result is impacted by the contribution, or not contribution, of the DH. A good hitting DH creates for everyone else more plate appearances, more runs scored, more men on base, and more wins for the team he is on. "Unique Exemption" does not mean leper.
August 16th, 2011 at 4:53 pm
John, Mike: I agree that, as I said in my orignal comment @3: "Thome has been a good enough hitter for many of his DH years that if DH were not an option he surely would have found a spot in the field for some club and increased his non-DH homer total." I also don't mean to say that DH accomplishments should be treated with some sort of "asterisk" (nor has any baseball record I know of ever been treated with an "asterisk", including Maris's 61). 600 homers is 600 homers (actually, 617, as Thome has 17 post-season homers -- sixth most in MLB history -- and after all why shouldn't they count in career totals?).
But that that could still mean that, in comparing Thome to his peers on the homer list, it may be appropriate for some purposes to take into account as one factor in comparative evaluations the more limited demands that were placed on Thome that may have allowed him to get to 600 (even if the appropriate adjustment is in scope more in line with the numbers you mention, John, than the full 200 or so of Thome's DH HRs) . For example, one might ask the alternative history question, how many of those guys who got to 400 to 599 career HRs but not to 600 might have made it to 600 if they had had the opportunity to DH? If the answer is at least a few of them (Mantle? Foxx? Snider?) , then that might render Thome's acomplishment as just the 8th man to actually reach 600 slightly less exclusive-seeming.
August 16th, 2011 at 6:11 pm
Birtelcom; A valid point about the past. I don't think Thome could have managed 600, given his health issues, without the DH, so you could argue that Foxx, Mantle, Snider, and add in Matthews, Ott, etc. would have done more with it-but still, it would have been a long way to 600 for all of them. The flip side of this is that many of the players in the 500's benefited as well, so if you are looking to equalize, you need to take that into account. To me it highlights the performance of Aaron, Ruth and Mays. You might also ask if someone marginal like Jim Rice would still make it, if his power numbers were adjusted downward somewhat.
August 16th, 2011 at 10:16 pm
@20: Pretty sure #11 was kidding about Thome.
Unless we want to accuse Nolan Ryan of using PED's too. Ryan looked about 160 pounds when he entered the majors, and by the time he left his legs looked like Wile E. Coyote's after the time he swallowed a whole jar of Triple-Strength Fortified Leg-Muscle Vitamins.
Ryan was supposed to be a workout freak: maybe there was something else to it?
August 16th, 2011 at 10:32 pm
I agree completely with Birtelcom's comments here.
It's not about applying asterisks or subtracting homers or whatever. It's just an acknowledgement of what seem to be obvious facts. The DH gives players the chance to extend their careers, to get extra rest within the season, and to concentrate all their focus and conditioning on hitting. If there were no DH, what would Thome's recent career look like? I can't say for sure, obviously, but we can take educated guesses. I don't know whether he could have been a regular 1Bman in '06-'07, but my recollection is that his last season in Philly was shortened by back problems, and he rarely if ever played 1B during interleague games after returning to the AL. Maybe playing the field would have hurt him or worn him down. Maybe he would have focused on losing weight to remain more agile, and that would have affected his hitting.
600 HR is a hell of a lot and good for him. Whatever the circumstances, Thome did it and most others haven't. I just don't flatly compare his HR total to, say, Mel Ott's, and decide Thome was a superior HR hitter. There are always tons of issues to assess in trying to compare across eras. The DH is one -- a pretty big one.
August 16th, 2011 at 11:57 pm
Jeff @35, John Autin already clued me in to JT's sense of irony. I think we are pretty much all agreeing with each other. It's easier to be a DH, and, to an extent, you need to factor that in when looking at counting stats. I don't compare Thome to Mel Ott either. 600 is a lot of home runs. 540 would have been a lot as well. FYI I think Thome's career with Philly came to an end after he had a serious elbow injury, but his back has been the big impediment the last few seasons and he was a full time DH when he returned to the American League (Konerko was certainly a better first basemen). I don't have a problem with a comparative demerit for the full time DH (Edgar clearly has one). The harder point is when take a positional player who has already had a very productive career, (Thome has 420 HR's before he was traded to Chicago) and have him extend his career with the DH. At the end of the day, if you really are looking to make an example of someone when it comes to HOF voting, Thome is a strange place to start. Assuming he's clean, there's no precedent for keeping anyone with his stats out.
August 17th, 2011 at 1:14 am
oops I missed this post, commented on the other Thome post, not knowing that this one was a-rocking.....well, then, I'll just summarize what I posted on FB- "if we took away the Game 163 homer(the one that beat the Twins, 1-0, in the 2008 CHI/MN playoff game)he'd still have 599, and would that be so bad???"
August 17th, 2011 at 2:29 am
Though many do not hit as well when NOT paying the field, as it is tough to develop a rhythm when not fully in the game, it is clearly fair to make the (non)positional downward adjustment when you do not have the wear & tear of playing the field. Though the role Thome fulfilled was legal, he did it very well, 7 he clearly could have played enough at a position to add value-if not as long, he would not have gotten the demerit.
B-R WAR has him at 71.1, & a proportionate, HOF peak: & those peak years were position playing. It does not seem close-the BR #s seem about right. He is a clear HOF man.
August 17th, 2011 at 2:24 pm
Regarding DHs and the HoF: what do you say about HoF-caliber hitters who were defensive liabilities? E.g., suppose Manny Ramirez had the career he did without the use of PEDs; there's a pretty credible HoF argument there. This despite the fact that he was a terrible fielder. In fact, he was this bad:
Career WAR:
Manny Ramirez: 66.8 (oWAR 78.6, dWAR -11.8)
Edgar Martinez: 67.2 (oWAR 66.9, dWAR 0.3)
And yet---but for the PED issue---we'd probably be thinking Manny gets in, Edgar doesn't. Are we saying that in HoF candidates we'd prefer a guy who actually hurts his team by picking up a glove to one who was just as valuable in a legal position? (I realize "just as valuable" makes it sound like I'm putting an awful lot of faith in the WAR calculations, but for arguments sake, let's suppose it's justified.)
-E
August 17th, 2011 at 3:56 pm
#40 Well, I haven't seen any analysis, but the consensus I remember is that Reggie Jackson was a pretty lousy right fielder (my first fielder's glove, as it happens, was a Reggie Jackson model--which became a long-running joke that my father and I laughed over for many years). If Reggie's defense could be proven to be as shaky as Manny's, would that make his HOF induction dubious?
August 17th, 2011 at 4:29 pm
#41: no, I don't think it would---my point was that if we're going to give HoF-caliber offensive players a pass for atrocious defense, it doesn't make much sense to penalize offensively similar DHs for not playing the field at all.
August 18th, 2011 at 11:24 am
I grant that DHing is less physically demanding than fielding any position.
But I still don't think it's much less taxing than playing 1B. Willie McCovey, who had a few physical ailments during his career, averaged 107 games at 1B from age 39-41 (136 games, then 97, then 89).