118 Responses to “Cracks in the foundation: the beginning of the end for Mariano Rivera”

1. Johnny Twisto Says:
   August 13th, 2011 at 7:38 pm

   As for my thoughts on Mo's demise. Is it the "beginning of the end"? Well, who the hell knows? I saw his game against Boston. I didn't see the last two appearances. He didn't pitch poorly vs Boston, just got victimized by a cheap Green Monster double.

   He hasn't looked quite as sharp as usual all season, but nothing to the extent that it's worried me. Most of the hits he allows are still cheapies -- bloops and flares and bleeders. Seems like there's been more of them this season, maybe more in big spots, but that just seems like the luck of the draw.

   I mean, it's obvious the MoBot is just undergoing a software upgrade, and all of a sudden we get these nuts talking about "he's human" and whatnot.

2. Andy Says:
   August 13th, 2011 at 8:12 pm

   JT, I'm gonna push back on you a little bit on #100. I think what increases with the size of player contracts is the scrutiny, but the basis for judgment is the same. A-rod, just about everybody will agree, is a d-bag. His behavior on the field sucks (shouting "HA", slapping Arroyo's glove, all the whining) and his behavior off the field sucks (performance enhancing drugs, getting caught in poker games he was told to avoid, etc.) Fans don't respect him because he doesn't do things the right way, and he can get away with less because he's scrutinized more due to his large contract. Jeter's got a contract with a similar AAV and gets just as much scrutiny, but gets good marks because of how he carries himself on and off the field.

   I felt that Neil was asking whether players get judged more harshly because of large contracts, which I don't think is the case---I think it's added scrutiny.

3. Johnny Twisto Says:
   August 13th, 2011 at 8:42 pm

   Yankee fans were all over A-Rod right from the beginning when he was perceived to be coming up short in the clutch in 2004, and that's before any of the events you mentioned. (Not before the steroids, but before it was known.) Jeter is absolutely not held to the same standards. I remember about 4-5 years ago when Jeter made the last out of a game with potential winning/tying runs on base for about 5 games in a row. If it had been A-Rod, he would have been destroyed for that. With Jeter, I read about it on BTF, and never heard a peep from the mainstream media.

   Jeter hurt his shoulder in early '03 sliding into Ken Huckaby's shin guards. It was *not* a dirty play by Huckaby, or a bad play in any way. Huckaby went to apologize to Jeter a couple days later, and Jeter wouldn't say a word to him. OK, he's pissed he's out for who knows how long, but is that carrying himself "the right way"? Jeter can be a dick*, but the media is on his side for various reasons, so he gets a pass. A-Rod certainly is a weird dude, but he also never gets a break from the media. And I believe the media informs fan reactions (and vice versa).

   Also, what do you mean by A-Rod's whining? About balls and strikes, or what? He has never struck me as a whiner on the field at all. I'm sure he's complained about some calls here and there, but no more than anyone else.

   *Apologies for the language, but I need to make my point.

4. Andy Says:
   August 13th, 2011 at 8:47 pm

   Fair enough, JT, I think you're at least partially right, but you're also arguing my point to a large degree that the players with similar-sized contracts are treated differently based on perception--it's not just about how much money they make.

   A-rod has a fair share of whining about balls and strikes, or about opposing players/coaches--certainly not particular egregious compared to a lot of other players, but a lot more than, say, Jeter.

5. Mike L Says:
   August 13th, 2011 at 8:55 pm

   JT, the common perception in NY is that ARod is for himself first, and Jeter (and maybe it's just good PR), is a team player. So, ARod was defined by his failures in the clutch, and Jeter by his head first dive into the stands to catch a pop up. A-Rod didn't help himself by saying "Jeter's never had to lead" as he walked in the door. That wasn't just seen as unwarranted personal criticism, but also as mouthing off from someone who had never won a world series, whereas Jeter had four rings at the time. There was also the ARod pose for a magazine cover kissing himself in the mirror. And so on. I don't doubt that Jeter has a healthy ego. But he doesn't indulge himself in "look at me" moments.

6. Johnny Twisto Says:
   August 13th, 2011 at 9:00 pm

   For what it's worth, where I come down on A-Rod's "transgressions":

   Shouting "HA" (or whatever): Bad. There's no rule against it, nor should there be, but players should know. When you're staring into the sky, you are depending on your teammates to let you know if they're there so you don't collide and get hurt. Opposing players should not be pretending to call for the ball. If they do, players know how to police such situations. I don't know if it was ever clarified what Rodriguez said. If he called "I got it," that's terrible. If it was just a "Ha," well, I don't know why that made the third baseman give up on the ball. He heard something that made him think a teammate was taking over, however.

   The glove slap: Doesn't bother me. Seems like a heady play, actually. If you can mow down a guy at the plate, why not trying smacking the ball out of his glove with your hand? I guess it's against the rules (not sure what rule), but he got caught and the Yankees paid the penalty. So be it. If Jeter had done it and gotten away with it, it would be held up as a symbol of brilliant gamesmanship.** One might argue "JETER WOULDN'T DO THAT!" and I can't really respond to that.

   Steroids. Not trying to start a whole debate here, but they don't bother me. If a player can take them safely, why not be the best you can be?

   Poker game. The latest I heard is that he wasn't even at this awful poker game, so it's a non-event. Anyway, even if he were, so what? OK, I understand baseball has concerns about players gambling and getting indebted to professional gamblers or criminals, and that's legitimate. To me, throwing games is *much* worse than steroids. But millions of people play poker. Is there any evidence A-Rod is losing tons of money? Every single team plays poker on their flights from city to city. When does Seligula decide it crosses the line? When it's a player who has himself immortalized as a centaur?

   **What would the reaction have been if A-Rod faked that HBP last season, instead of Jeter?

7. Johnny Twisto Says:
   August 13th, 2011 at 9:05 pm

   you're also arguing my point to a large degree that the players with similar-sized contracts are treated differently based on perception--it's not just about how much money they make.

   Hmm...I suppose you're right!

   I think contract size has a lot to do with perception, but you are right, it's not determinative.

   If Jeter had signed as a FA with a different team this year, he would get held to a different standard than he is in NY. Yankees fans think Tino Martinez is the bees' knees, but Cardinals fans hate him. He didn't even sign a huge contract there, but he was replacing Big Mac** and apparently did a lot of complaining about how things weren't like they had been in New York. He didn't have the history in StL as he did in NY, so no slack cut.

   **Not to be confused with Timmy P's grandfather and Bert Blyleven's illegitimate father.

8. Johnny Twisto Says:
   August 13th, 2011 at 9:12 pm

   A-Rod didn't help himself by saying "Jeter's never had to lead" as he walked in the door.

   Just to clarify, this was an interview given a couple years prior to A-Rod's joining the Yankees. At the time, Jeter and Rodriguez were supposedly best friends. As I recall, nothing Rodriguez said was really wrong, but his comments pissed Jeter off, and rightly so. Accurate or not, you don't say things like that about your boy for national publication. Supposedly Jeter has never forgiven Rodriguez for this.

   Actually, I don't think these comments ever *directly* hurt A-Rod with Yankee fans (since it occurred some time before he was a Yankee), but they may have indirectly, as it's been noted ever since A-Rod's arrival that he and Jeter have their differences.

9. Neil L. Says:
   August 13th, 2011 at 9:19 pm

   @106
   JT, the "HA" A-Rod incident was the one in Toronto?

   Either way, I can tell you he lost huge respect from his opponents and in the opposition market

   Memory fails me. Was that the same road trip where he left his gorgeous wife in NY, and was photographed leaving a Yorkville (upscale entertainment area of Toronto) bar with an "exotic" dancer?

   Did A-Rod get a total pass from the NY media and fans for stuff like that?

10. Mike L Says:
    August 13th, 2011 at 9:23 pm

    JT-you are correct, ARod's remark came in a 2001 article, along with another in which he said pitchers don't worry about Jeter in the line up. This was when they were supposedly friends. It's irrelevant whether the comments had any accuracy at all; they were gratuitous and self serving. ARod was certainly the game's best shortstop at the time-he didn't need to run down Jeter, but somehow he felt he had to.

11. Johnny Twisto Says:
    August 13th, 2011 at 9:46 pm

    Neil, I do remember it being against Toronto. Not sure if it was *in* Toronto, or at the same time he romanced the brawny dancer.

    No, I don't think he got a pass in NY. It was frowned on. Maybe there's some limit to how much he'll get run down though, since even to his haters he's still "our" guy.

    Sometimes it's hard to tell how big a deal a certain event is, though, since our fabulous tabloids need something to fill their back page everyday. I'm just now remembering how A-Rod's wife once wore a FCUK (French Connection UK) shirt to a game and everyone lost their isht. I feel like this was around the time of one of Alex's myriad other controversies -- perhaps the dancer -- so it just multiplied.

    Ahh...here 'tis. The shirt's sentiment may be worse than I remembered, but the font is smaller.
    http://gothamist.com/attachments/jen/2007_07_frod.JPG

12. Neil L. Says:
    August 13th, 2011 at 10:23 pm

    @111
    Yeah, Johnny T., it was at the Rogers Center. I remember there were two out and A-Rod was on second. It was a pop-up to third and while running to third he verbally distracted the Toronto player. I believe he scored on the play.

    I think he may have been thrown at later in the game. I'll try to find the box.

13. Richard Chester Says:
    August 13th, 2011 at 11:56 pm

    @112

    I think John McDonald was the distracted Toronto player.

14. RobMer Says:
    August 14th, 2011 at 12:36 am

    For whatever it's worth (not much), I don't agree on the HA incident. There was debate if A-Rod did anything wrong, with the media doing its best to run with the idea that he was wrong. (It's A-Rod; he's always assumed wrong because of who he is.) He did have those who defended his actions, especially some older-time players and managers who were mostly stunned that it worked. Howie Clark, the Jays' 3B'man, was green and was taken by a veteran on a play that never should have worked. Does anyone think that other players have not tried this over the years, including on A-Rod, since this incident? We don't hear about unless it's A-Rod.

    It's similar to the incident with Dallas Braden, who came up with some "unwritten" rule about running across the mound. It may very well be that A-Rod was trying to unnerve Braden, who then did his part to show that he wasn't. That's all fine, as far as I'm concerned, with both parties. If A-Rod (or any player) can take a pitcher off his game by running too close to the mound or over the mound, then his job is to do just that. And if that pitcher, in this case Braden, wants to make a case of it to show that he's not intimidated, that's all great too. The media, though, is not going to report that story. They'll report that it was all A-Rod's fault.

    For the record, I think almost all "unwritten rules" are B.S. I can't say all, since there's probably a few that make sense, but most don't. For example, the "don't bunt during a no-hitter" is nonsense at all times. All. The team should earn the no-hitter and not be helped by having the defense knowing it can play back and not worry about a bunt.

15. Johnny Twisto Says:
    August 14th, 2011 at 12:54 am

    Well, that's a tricky situation. If you're bunting when down 8 runs, it's a pretty lame move. There's a give and take involved. The infield should not be playing back on the outfield grass. But I don't think that usually happens. If a player bunts in a situation when he would not normally bunt, solely for the purpose of getting a hit, it's weak sauce. And as with all "unwritten rules," players should police it themselves.

    I didn't have a problem with that Aybar bunt vs Verlander a couple weaks ago, and it seemed like most of the talking head ex-players didn't either. Verlander stared him down a bit, but didn't go overboard about it. So, whatever....he was upset about losing the no-no, and the game was tense regardless.

16. J. B. Rainsberger Says:
    August 14th, 2011 at 12:30 pm

    @99 I have the time, yes, and I do hang out a fair bit, but I try only to speak up when I really have something worth adding. I don't have the energy to do the kind of in-depth work that baseball analysts do these days. I missed my chance.

    When I was younger -- late 1980s, early 1990s -- I bought "Baseball Yardstick" along with two other partners, and we kept it alive for a few years. I thought I would go into performance analysis as an ongoing side venture, and I thought I knew stuff, but I was a tourist, an amateur with negligible statistical knowledge. Once everyone had a computer and could run a spreadsheet, I was done for, as the real analysts could publish and become known.

    So I hang out here a bit, and occasionally add something to the discussion, but not often and not much. 🙂

17. J. B. Rainsberger Says:
    August 14th, 2011 at 12:36 pm

    @100

    Rivera's workload *has* gotten smaller. His regular season IP have gone down for 6 consecutive seasons. He's currently on pace to pitch slightly more than his 60 IP of last season, but not by much.

    I didn't consider that statistically significant. His number of appearances has stayed steady, and I figured the pattern in innings was either noise, or Girardi having faith in other pitchers to get the last out of the 8th inning. Now that I look a bit more closely, his IP/G and BF had a drop after 2007, although not as significant as Ryan pitching 30 IP fewer per year towards the end.

    Someone would have to look at the Yankees' game logs 2005-2010 and count how many times Rivera didn't appear in a game when he probably should have. This would help tell us whether the reduction in IP is noise (fewer save opportunities, same save opportunities bunched closer together, and he can't get 4 in a row, &c) or Girardi intentionally giving him more time off.

18. J. B. Rainsberger Says:
    August 14th, 2011 at 12:42 pm

    @114 Rodriguez interfered with Howie Clark. True, Clark could have known better. True, umpires put up with it. Still, by the rules, Rodriguez interfered with the play. Why umpires so capriciously and inconsistently make interference calls, I don't know. It has become a theme to the Jays season this year: Escobar was called out on an interference play that umpires routinely don't call, and that cost the Jays a win; just this past week, a Baltimore batter (Andino?) contacted Luis Perez running on the grass trying to beat out a hit, clearly interference, with no call. I can't figure it out.

    Hey umpires, call it or don't call it, but make up your minds.