90 Responses to “Games of Wed., June 8: A.J.’s Crash’n’Burn; Bautista’s Slump; More Extra-Base Hits than Runs?”

1. Doug Says:
   June 9th, 2011 at 12:50 am

   Interesting that 2 of the 5 XBH > Runs are both Garret Anderson. Is this the definition of the slowest and/or worst baserunner?

   Also, Anderson's 2003 season of 200+ hits and an OBP under 0.350 is also a bit unusual. Only 30 other players have turned that trick but, and only 3 have done it twice in a career (Gary Templeton, Steve Garvey and Cecil Cooper).

2. Johnny Twisto Says:
   June 9th, 2011 at 1:02 am

   Re A-Rod's 89 PA vs Wakefield: Many years ago I was thinking about which one batter-pitcher matchup had occurred the most in MLB history. I concluded it was probably Ty Cobb-Walter Johnson, but who could know if it were true. Anyway, Retrosheet slowly works back, so hopefully one day we can know for sure. Anyone have another guess? Anyone know which 1950-now matchup occurred most often? (Rose-Gibson? Carew-Palmer? Just off the top of my head.....)

   ***

   If he hadn't broken his hand in 2008, I think Carlos Quentin would have deserved the MVP that year. There were no overwhelming candidates that season; Pedroia won (which I had no problem with), but I know a lot of people thought it was a bad choice. Five players received 1st place votes. Still, no SP was in the running (Cliff Lee was highest, in 12th -- rejoice, George King).

   A few years back, people thought the Diamondbacks were primed to take over the NL (or at least, the NL West). In 2007, they won 92 games with Quentin, Chris Young, Stephen Drew, and Mark Reynolds, all 23 or 24, in the starting lineup, plus 19 yr old Justin Upton primed to become a superstar. Let it be a lesson to the KC Royals. Even if your prospects all develop, it's not necessarily enough -- look at all the good players Milwaukee has produced over the past several seasons. That homegrown core still has to be complemented.

   ***

   Maholm and Duke -- no wonder I've never been able to keep these guys straight. Tom Gorzelanny too. I finally learned who Ian Snell was because he was having mental issues. Pittsburgh's developmental system just blows. Too many promising players over the past decade have fizzled for it to be pure chance.

   ***

   I followed Mark Melancon's minor league progress. I especially liked his 2008 season: 95 IP in relief in 44 G over 3 levels. No MLB relievers are used like that anymore. I couldn't guess what role the Yanks were trying to prepare him for. Anyway, when he finally got some major league time, his stuff didn't really impress me. But his minor league results were so good I figured he deserved a chance. Happy to see him doing well.

3. Johnny Twisto Says:
   June 9th, 2011 at 1:04 am

   Interesting that 2 of the 5 XBH > Runs are both Garret Anderson. Is this the definition of the slowest and/or worst baserunner?

   He was no speedster but I never thought of Anderson as a slug. I think it's more related to his mediocre OBP, as well as a vast majority of his XBH being doubles.

4. Doug Says:
   June 9th, 2011 at 1:07 am

   Is there another player like Bay whose numbers have turned south so much and so fast?

   Actually, yes. Geoff Jenkins is Bay's top similarity match for ages 28, 29 and 31, and the number 2 match for ages 27 and 30. All 5 scores are 945 or higher. Jenkins flamed out with a 79 OPS+ at age 33.

5. Doug Says:
   June 9th, 2011 at 1:12 am

   @2.

   Re: pitcher/batter matchups.

   It's not exactly 1950 and after, but I have to think Warren Spahn and Stan Musial must have hooked up a whole bunch.

6. John Autin Says:
   June 9th, 2011 at 1:12 am

   @2, JT re: most frequent 1950-now batter-pitcher matchup:

   I'll guess that Warren Spahn is half of that duo. From 1950-68, Spahnie faced way more batters than any other pitcher who stayed in one league.

7. John Autin Says:
   June 9th, 2011 at 1:13 am

   Duke, you're killin' me! 🙂 And I'll bet you're right about Musial being the other half, too.

8. Doug Says:
   June 9th, 2011 at 1:19 am

   @5.

   Spahn is Musial's #1 match for 1950 onwards with 260 PA. Robin Roberts is second at 180 PA.

9. Doug Says:
   June 9th, 2011 at 1:24 am

   Another frequent matchup: Jim Palmer and Carl Yastrzemski.

   Actually, Yaz's top 3 matchups are all Jims: Palmer (197), Perry (167) and Kaat (151).

10. Johnny Twisto Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 1:29 am

    Spahn makes sense. I was thinking he started too long before '50, but he sure had a long career (only to '65 though). OK, let's see....

    Spahn faced Musial 260 times. They were both in the league from '46, so it's probably over 300.

    Rose faced Gibson 132 times, only his 10th most common opponent. Terrible guess, as his most common was Phil Niekro, 266 times. Rose is also Niekro's most common opponent.

    Carew did face Palmer more than anyone, but only 118 times. Obviously I needed to focus on guys who played more in the '50s (pre-expansion). Palmer's most common opponent was Yaz, 197 PA.

    Willie Mays faced Spahn 253 times.

    Mickey Mantle faced Billy Pierce 221 times.

    Hank Aaron faced Don Drysdale 249 times.

    Anyway, Cobb and Johnson's careers are almost parallel, over 20 seasons long, with their teams facing off 22 times per season. Although we don't have gamelogs, we do know who started each game, so one could go through and see how many starts Johnson had vs Detroit. We can estimate Johnson averaged 3344 batters faced per opponent, so about 372 PA per batting spot (Cobb missed a lot of games, but batted higher in the order). Maybe they faced off 350 times?

11. -mark Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 1:37 am

    Looking at his number, Jose Bautista is currently leading in HR and Average, though nowhere in RBI. And not likely for a Triple Crown.

    I am just wondering, are we ever likely to get a batting Triple Crown winner again? Or was Yastrzemski in '67 going to be the last of them? Has anyone even gotten close since then?

12. Doug Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 1:41 am

    @10.

    Here's a good indicator on how expansion and reduced pitcher innings also reduces matchup counts.

    In Tom Glavine's 21 NL seasons, his top matchup is Craig Biggio, with "only" 127 PAs.

13. fredsbank Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 1:51 am

    @9
    that's probably to make up for the complexity of his own last name, jim being rather generic

14. Johnny Twisto Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 1:52 am

    I am just wondering, are we ever likely to get a batting Triple Crown winner again? Or was Yastrzemski in '67 going to be the last of them? Has anyone even gotten close since then?

    Ever? How long will MLB last? It wouldn't shock me.

    I know players have gotten relatively close since then, though no specific seasons immediately come to mind. I must head to bed but hopefully others will fill in.

15. Doug Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 1:53 am

    @11.

    Larry Walker comes to mind. In '97, he was 1st in HR, 2nd in BA and 3rd in RBI.

    His splits that year are surprisingly neutral, considering he was playing at pre-humidor Coors:
    Home: .384/.460/.709 with 20 HR 68 RBI
    Away: .346/.443/.733 with 29 HR 62 RBI

16. Johnny Twisto Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 1:59 am

    Larry Walker comes to mind. In '97, he was 1st in HR, 2nd in BA and 3rd in RBI.

    But it also matters how close they are to actually leading. In Walker's case, he was only 6 points back in BA and 10 RBI back, so yes, I'd consider that a close call. But one could finish 3rd in RBI and be 30 back, so it's not really close to winning.

    ***

    I just read that Jeter-Wakefield is the top active matchup, 115 PA.

17. Timmy P Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 2:59 am

    Any other players with a .323 average and 1300 RBI's not in the HoF? Hard to keep Todd Helton out.

18. KJ Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 3:16 am

    Not to take anything away from Yaz for his triple crown, but he was tied with Killebrew for Homers that year. Not saying anything except, that was close.

    Maybe Helton for a kinda, sorta, maybe close for NL Triple Crown in 2000:

    Led in Avg (.372), RBIs (147), but 7th in HRs (42).

    7th, OK, but still just 8 HRs off of Sosa's 50.

19. Jimbo Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 3:53 am

    Wasn't Pujols for a while an almost perennial triple crown threat? He never did it though.

    Bautista still has a shot. Lind came back recently and is hammerig the ball, 4 homers and 10 rbis in 5 games. He's bating behind Bautista, and if he keeps hitting, Bautista should get more pitches to hit.

    Looking at Box scores today, here are my observations.

    Vladimir Guerero has only 6 walks this year. He's DHing every game and batting 4th. His OPS+ of 98 is still somewhat respectable. Can he DH every game (or close to) the whole year, and only walk 16 times?

    Juan Pierre and Ichiro squared off, both bating in their regular leadoff spots. Both had 0 hits in the game, and both finished the game batting .256. Neither player walks and these 2 hitters mostly just hit singles. Ichiro brings defense and successful base stealing, Pierre doesn't even bring that. But both players are having terrible years. Ichiro's track record is so strong that it'll take quite a while longer before his low production warrants a real look, but I don't know how Ozzie Guillen keeps penciling Pierre into the leadoff spot.

    Matt Stairs pinch hit, and didn't get a hit. I don't know how this guy still has a regular job. He has 1 XBH in 37 AB's this year, it was a double and his OPS is .385. Pinch hitters come up in big spots, and the way this guy is hitting, you might as well just let whoever was gonna bat go ahead and hit, even if it's a pitcher. While Stairs is a favourite player of mine, I don't think he has any business being a team's pinch hitter. Every time I've watched hi bat the last few years he's looked completely overmatched. I think that one play-off home run 3 years ago extended his career by 3 years.

    Omar Vizquel, 2821 career hits, OPS+ of 87 this year with 22 hits, age 44
    Ivan Rodriguez, 2835 career hits, OPS+ of 62 this year with 18 hits, age 39

    Who will end their career with more?

20. Biff Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 6:37 am

    @19

    Totally agree with everything you said about Stairs. It's sort of cool and puzzling he still has a job. However, I'm starting to worry a bit about Suzuki.

21. Biff Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 6:46 am

    From a team perspective, June 8 was not a nice night for the New York Mets,

22. Nash Bruce Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 8:20 am

    soooooooo...........is Ichiro a HOF? I say, absolutely!!!! I'd understand, the opposing argument, although I'd still offer up token resistance (yes, granted, he is one of my faves) if the argument against him in the HOF, were based on his offensive stats- looking at those alone, I'd say, 'well, yeah, this guy had a damn good career'. But then, there is also the defense.
    A slam-dunk HOF. My apologies, that he didn't walk enough, or whatever:)

23. Nash Bruce Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 8:24 am

    @19: (disclaimer: this is coming from a Twins fan) Ozzie, admit that he's wrong?? Phhhhttttbbbhhhh.....
    LOL

24. Rainbow99 Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 9:19 am

    Has Ichiro had an HOF poll here? Looking back to the last half of last year it sure looks like he's beginning the decline phase of his career and at 37 years old its very likely that he's already made his case. He can accumulate for another 2-3 years which will bring his HOF standards up a bit.

    Personally, I see him as a no brainer HOFer. His HOF monitor is at 206. Not sure how many steroid-free players have an HOF monitor above 200 and don't wind up in.

25. John Autin Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 10:14 am

    @24, Rainbow99 -- "Not sure how many steroid-free players have an HOF monitor above 200 and don't wind up in."

    Just wondering -- Which players from the "steroids era" do we know were steroid-free?

    Or were you just referring to the few HOF-caliber players who tested positive?

26. Brendan Burke Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 10:29 am

    With Ichiro, there's going to be a debate on whether to count his Japanese stats. With Juan Pierre... well, we know Juan Pierre isn't getting in.

27. John Autin Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 10:31 am

    @26, Brendan -- Do HOF voters generally take minor-league stats into consideration?

    The Japanese leagues are indisputably not up to MLB caliber, as shown by the performance of players who've played in both.

    Ichiro's HOF candidacy rests on what he does in MLB. I still think he makes it on that basis alone.

28. Johnny Twisto Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 10:59 am

    Any other players with a .323 average and 1300 RBI's not in the HoF?

    Nope. Close calls are Babe Herman (.324, 997 RBI), Larry Walker (.313, 1311 RBI), Al Oliver (.303, 1326), Bobby Veach (.310, 1166), George van Haltren (.316, 1015). Magglio Ordonez, currently at .310, 1209, should join them.

    You may find Larry Walker's case instructive when looking at Helton. (Though Walker's chances aren't nil. He got 20% of the vote in his first try.)

29. mosc Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 11:17 am

    @17, who cares about batting average anymore? 1300 RBI's is not a hall of fame milestone (and also not one of the stats I use, I prefer RE24). Gary Gaetti finished with 1341 and nobody sane considers him a hall of famer. He also beat Helton with 4 GG's (vs 3) at a more defensively important position. Not saying Helton wasn't a better player than Gaetti, but with the taint of steroids in the era and the joys of playing in Colorado, it's going to weight down his chances. 1300 RBI's is a detrimental number in my eyes given a career ops over .900.

    Helton is a pretty good example of why RBI's don't mean much. His RE24 is 18th all time at over 600 (which is probably a pretty good HOF benchmark). The stat doesn't go back far enough to compare against most HOFers, but that's a lot of run production for his RBI's. I compared him to the active RE24/RBI leader (A-Rod) who has 670 RE24 leading to 1865 RBI's or about a 2.78 to 1 ratio. Helton's ratio of 602 RE24 leading to 1264 RBI's is about 2.10 to 1 ratio. Granted that A-Rod is a bigger RBI threat than Helton was at the plate but Helton was far better in his less frequent runners in scoring position performances.

    If he makes it or not is going to depend a lot on who gets judged as tainted and who doesn't. His 2000 season was historic but barely good enough for 5th that year in the MVP standings. You're talking about a year where like 20 guys had an OPS > 1

30. Lawrence Azrin Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 11:28 am

    @2/ Johnny Twisto Says: "... Many years ago I was thinking about which one batter-pitcher matchup had occurred the most in MLB history. I concluded it was probably Ty Cobb-Walter Johnson, but who could know if it were true..."

    Johhny T., interesting speculative exercise - approaching this logically, I would start out with:
    - the pitcher(s) with the most Innings Pitched
    - the batter whose career overlaps the most with that particular pitcher
    - preferably pre-expansion, so less teams and no "unbalanced" schedule
    -the batter and pitcher are in the same league but never on the same team

    So...., starting with Cy Young (who has about 2000 more IP than W. Johnson), I came up with Wee Willie Keeler, from 1892 to 1909. It isn't a perfect fit, because:
    - two years (1901-02) they were in different leagues
    -12 NL teams from 1892 to 1899
    - less than a 154-game schedule seven of the years

    HOWEVER:
    -Cy Young was in the Top Ten in Innings Pitched every year, often in the Top Five
    -Keeler usually batted first or second and was often in the leaders of Plate Appearances

    I'd go along with your first guess of Cobb-Johnson, and Spahn-Musial is probably up there too.

    TRIPLE CROWN?
    As for the possibility of a Triple Crown winner - up until the 1960s, most power hitters also hit for a high (or at least decent) average, then as strikeouts became more accepted, low-average sluggers like Harmon Killebrew gradually became more accepted. So nowadays, the best hitters are either:
    - high-average hitters with less HR power
    or
    -power hitters with lower BA's

    I am vastly simplifying, of course; there are exceptions like Frank Thomas, A-Rod, Manny Ramirez, and Pujols (amongst others). I really thought Pujols would've done it, but usually it's just random chance the way a players' best years line up with other players - the way that neither Aaron nor Mays won the Triple Crown, or really even came close. Hornsby and Ted Williams won TWO, but none for Babe Ruth?

31. nightfly Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 11:39 am

    Wow, how does a guy rack up that many hits and only walk 30 times a year? Especially in a season where a guy is leading the league in doubles and hitting homers. You'd think pitchers would be more selective and either let Anderson get himself out, or put him on first instead of farther along.

    OK, research time. I can't break it down according to how each person hit in each spot of the batting order, though someone with a PI subscription could do it.

    Looks like in 2003, this was somewhat justified. Anderson spent nearly the whole year hitting fourth (in the Joe Carter Memorial Designated Run-Battering-In Position). In front of him was Tim Salmon, enjoying his last good year (275/374/464 in 621 PA). Behind him was either Troy Glaus, who hit 248/343/464 in 367 PA before getting hurt, and then Scott Spezio, who filled in competently (265/326/453 in 581 PA for the whole year). Later in the year, the Halos swapped him with Salmon and he finished the year hitting third.

    But in '98, I don't get it at all. Anderson hit sixth for a majority of the year, and his primary "protection" in the order was Matt Walbeck (not that good a hitter), Phil Nevin (his career-worst season), and Glaus as a rookie (hit all of one home run in 182 PA; two seasons later he'd hit 47 HR in 678 PA). Their collaborate season's effort produced a 239/299/351 slash line, with 15 homers, 50 xbh, 62 bb, and 186 k in 823 plate appearances. Who wouldn't rather pitch to any or all of them, rather than Anderson, who could drive a pitch?

32. Johnny Twisto Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 11:40 am

    Oddly, Pujols has very few individual triple crown titles -- one batting title, two HR titles, one RBI title. Yet he has finished in the top 3 in batting four other times, and in the top 7 every season of his career. He has been in the top 4 in HR five other times, and is again this season. He has been in the top 5 in RBI nine times.

33. Richard Chester Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 11:40 am

    Concerning pitcher/batter match-ups what about Rabbit Maranville and Grover Alexander? Maranville had lots of PA and Alexander had lots of IP and their careers had a long overlap.

34. Thomas Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 11:47 am

    A quick question about something that happened last night:

    Domonic Brown was batting with Shane Victorino on third. Brown hit a slow roller between the pitcher and second, the second baseman threw home to get Victorino and Victorino was called safe, Brown safe at first. In the play-by-play it's listed as a Fielder's Choice. Is that right? I guess I'm just not sure how Brown doesn't get a hit there, the fielder made an accurate throw, and a clean attempt but just didn't get the runner out.. no error.

35. Johnny Twisto Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 11:59 am

    I didn't see the play, but if the scorer thinks the fielder definitely could have gotten the out at first, then calling it a fielder's choice seems appropriate. Brown only reached safely because the fielder chose to throw to another base.

36. Johnny Twisto Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 12:05 pm

    Maranville-Alexander is a good one that I wouldn't have thought of. But my quick&dirty estimate is that they faced off less than 300 times.

37. Johnny Twisto Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 12:09 pm

    Q&D estimate on Young-Keeler also has them under 300 (but probably over 250).

38. Thomas Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 12:45 pm

    @35, i see. I didn't know that a fielders choice wasn't dependant on an out or an error in the attempt of an out being made. Thanks!

39. John Autin Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 12:52 pm

    @30, Lawrence, re: separation between high-BA hitters and power hitters:

    I don't know if I'm misunderstanding you, but as far as the last 20 years is concerned, the distinction you asserted simply is not there.

    Barry Bonds was just one of a great many high-BA power hitters during the recent era. In the 20 years from 1991-2010, there were 97 different player-seasons of .320+ BA and 30+ HRs.

40. Lawrence Azrin Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 12:58 pm

    @14/ Johnny Twisto - probably the closest anyone has come to the Triple Crown since Yaz is:
    Gary Sheffield/ 1992 - led in BA, two behind in HR, 9 behind in RBI
    There's probably a number of sluggers who have led in HR/RBI, but were not close in BA.

    @18/KJ- being tied for first in a category is just as "legit" in the TC; in 1937 Joe Medwick was tied with Mel Ott with 31 HR. Interesting that the last Triple Crown winners in each league were tied in HR...

    @30/ Correction - Hank Aaron led in HR/RBI in 1963, but finished 3rd in BA, seven points behind - I'll call that "close". Babe Ruth probably came closer in 1926, when he led in HR/ RBI (by a lot), but was six points short in BA (to Heinie Manush) .

41. Rainbow99 Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 1:11 pm

    @ 25 - I'm from the camp that if there is some evidence that a player has tested positive for steroids, then that evidence is useful in evaluating a player's HOF worthiness (for lack of a better word) as it puts his achievements in question. Of course, the source and substance of the evidence must also be evaluated once it materializes. Again, this is only my personal position. Therefore, logically, my position would mean that for all players where no evidence exists, then they are clean until evidence arises otherwise. As far as Ichiro is concerned, I'm not aware that there is any credible evidence of steroid use. I understand that there are many who disagree with this evaluative process. My thinking is that absent evidence we substitute our feelings.

    @26 & 27. My personal opinion is that Ichiro's accomplishments prior to his MLB career are not relevant to his election to the MLB HOF. That said, I still feel that he is an easy MLB HOF election- perhaps even first ballot depending upon who else is on the ballot in whatever year he is up for vote. It would make an interesting discussion for sure.

42. John Autin Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 1:27 pm

    @41, Rainbow99 -- Eloquent position statement.

    "...for all players where no evidence exists, then they are clean until evidence arises otherwise."

    Not to make a big deal about a semantic point, but ... "Innocent until proven guilty" is not the same as calling someone "steroid-free." We do have ample circumstantial evidence that the number of users was far greater than the number of players caught. If we say that every player whose name has never been sullied was steroid-free, we are by definition exonerating a number of guilty parties.

    Given that state of affairs, I just prefer to keep my language agnostic.

43. Doug B Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 1:32 pm

    For Fielder to pass Robin Yount as the all-time Brewers leader he'd need 60 home runs this season!

    (I'm guessing he comes up a dozen short)

44. Rainbow99 Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 1:48 pm

    @42 I certainly understand your thought. for example, I agree that we have some circumstantial evidence that the number of people who have shoplifted in America is larger than the number of people who have been caught and/or accused of doing so. But in terms of HOF worthiness we must engage in some sort of evaluative process about a person, not a group. Because we are evaluating a person it would seem that evidence regarding that person would be the most meaningful tool.

    Again, not trying to stir up anything.

    On the whole I am more worried about keeping the worthy out through guilt by association than having some few in that may have gotten in through steroid use.

45. John Autin Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 1:55 pm

    @43, Doug B -- My Yount reference was meant to raise the question of whether Fielder will be with Milwaukee after this year -- not to suggest that he could hit 42 more HRs this year.

46. RandomTransactionGenerator Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 2:14 pm

    Reading about the Jeter/Wakefield matchup, it's been almost 15 years between their first matchup and Wednesday.

    I went looking to find the biggest span of time between first and last matchups between a batter and a pitcher.
    The longest I found was 20 years, 18 days, between Tim Raines and Jesse Orosco. It took lots of manual searching (starting with longest career list). Is there some shorter search using the BR-PI that I'm missing?

47. Anon Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 2:20 pm

    RE: Batter/pitcher matchups - I have vague recollectons of this topic coming up in a thread either here or somewhere else in the last few years and I think the Rose/Niekro combo was the best answer anyone could come up with in the searchable data. If they hadn't been on the same team, Aaron/Spahn would be a great guess. (BTW, Aaron/Drysdale was 249 PA)

    As for more recent ones, Bonds/MAddux squared off 157 times.

    Actually ARod/Maddux only 89 times isn't really that hard to believe with interleague and ARod having switched divisions once midway through his career. 8 HRs as his most against any pitcher is a little odd though.

48. stan cook Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 2:33 pm

    How many Triple Crowns would Ruth have won if it were OBA, HR, RBIs, instead of BA, HR, RBIs?

49. Lawrence Azrin Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 2:34 pm

    @39/ John A., I admit I exaggerated this alleged separation between high-BA and power hitters. However, in the post-expansion era, I do think this is a noticeable trend.

    Yes there are a number of high-BA power hitters in the last several decades, but the standards you mention (.320+ BA, 30+ HR) are not usually good enough to lead the league: in your time frame (1991-2010), there have been only three league-leaders with a BA in the .320's, and four with HR's in 30's. A {.330+ BA/ 40+ HR} combo might be more revealing.

    Speaking of which: interesting that Barry Bonds won two batting titles in his 2001-2004 stretch, but only one HR title, and not even close in RBI - the Triple Crown stats don't really indicate how incredibly dominant he was during this period (OBP, OBP, OBP..).

50. Anon Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 2:40 pm

    Another strong contender - Early Wynn/Yogi Berra - they faced odff 226 times from 1950-1963 and Wynn faced the Yankees 14 times from 47-49 (Yogi was up in 46 also but never batted against the Senators)

    I'm not going to take the time to go through the box scores to check them off but that has to be in the 270 PA neighborhood. . . . .oh, heck, I had to look it up: check my math but it looks to me like Yogi and Early faced off 31 times from 47-49 (Yogi sat quite a bit against Wynn) so the total is only 257.

51. Anon Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 2:44 pm

    Robin Roberts/Duke Snider looks like 258 PAs

52. Johnny Twisto Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 2:49 pm

    How many Triple Crowns would Ruth have won if it were OBA, HR, RBIs

    Five

53. Lawrence Azrin Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 3:02 pm

    @48/ stan cook Says: "How many Triple Crowns would Ruth have won if it were OBA, HR, RBIs, instead of BA, HR, RBIs?"

    Babe RUTH (5): 1919-1921, 1924,1926
    Ted WILLIAMS (3): 1941, 1947, 1949
    Rogers HORNSBY (2): 1922, 1925

    Thie above list is probably not all-inclusive of multiple winners, but I think that all of the actual Triple Crown winners (except for Joe Medwick) also led in OBA.

54. John Autin Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 4:47 pm

    @49, Lawrence: "the standards you mention (.320+ BA, 30+ HR) are not usually good enough to lead the league" (emphasis added)

    Indeed not. If they were, we probably would have had a Triple Crown or three.

    One aspect of Triple Crowns that hasn't been mentioned above is that they often feature an unusually low league-leading mark in one of the three categories. The last 2 were won with BAs of .326 (Yaz) and .316 (F-Rob). TW's 2nd came with modest all-around marks of .343, 32 HR and 114 RBI; in 2010, 5 of the 6 league-leading figures were better than that. Medwick in '37 led with 32 HRs.

    My threshold of .320 & 30 HRs was arbitrary, but I think it's a decent guess at a minimum level that gets a player into a zone where he might win the Triple Crown, if other things break his way.

55. John Autin Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 4:57 pm

    Here are the number of "triple-crown-zone" seasons from 1991-2010, using various arbitrary combinations:

    -- .320, 30, 110 ... 70 seasons

    -- .330, 35, 120 ... 26 seasons.

    -- .340, 40, 130 ... 4 seasons

    Barry Bonds had 3 seasons (including 1 that didn't fall into any of those groups) that would have won a Triple Crown in many years:
    1993 -- .336, 46, 123
    2001 -- .328, 73, 137
    2002 -- .370, 46, 110

56. Lawrence Azrin Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 5:07 pm

    @54/ John Autin Says: "@49, Lawrence... ...One aspect of Triple Crowns that hasn't been mentioned above is that they often feature an unusually low league-leading mark in one of the three categories. The last 2 were won with BAs of .326 (Yaz) and .316 (F-Rob)..."

    Excellent point, I hadn't considered that. "Triple Crown talk" is an interesting diversion here, but it's kind of an oddball category, not really separating all-time greats from everybody else. I mean, both Chuck Klein and Joe Medwick won it,and they had great years, but most people do not put them in a category with the very greatest hitters (they finished 88th and 116th in career OPS%, respectively).

    It's similar to hitting .400 - quite often a candidate emerges early in the season, but no has made it till the end of the year in a very long time.

57. Jimbo Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 5:31 pm

    An interesting thing about Wakefield, is that despite being a knuckleballer, and despite pitching for 20 years, he's never been the big innings eater that we associate with knuckleballers of the past. He's only cleared 200 innnings 5 times

58. Deaner Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 6:23 pm

    Probably a remedial question, forgive the newbie, but:

    Wakefield (age 44) and Varitek (39) have a Battery Age of 83.

    When Satchel Paige pitched three innings for the Athletics in 1965, at age 59, his batterymate, Billy Bryan, was a relatively youthful 26, for a Battery Age of 85.

    Any ideas about the major league record Battery Age? Plenty of old pitchers; fewer older catchers. Perhaps this is an established fact that I've yet to ferret out.

59. Jimbo Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 7:22 pm

    Those are going to be hard to beat. Catchers rarely play past 40, so the only recent examples of pitchers that could pick up that slack would be Moyer, Ryan, or Orosco.

60. Jimbo Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 7:24 pm

    I hope Wakefield pitches forever. MLB needs to have a knuckleballer. Are there any other active knucklers out there now?

    Off topic. The White sox lead the league with 28 CS, and they only have 27 SB's.

61. Voomo Zanzibar Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 7:41 pm

    If you change the Ruth inquiry to OPS instead of OBP he gets 6 triple crowns.

    And by the way, if Joba isn't in pain, and there is nothing wrong with his throwing, why don't they just leave him alone? Maybe he is a freak of nature, like that guy in Thailand who can cook fried chicken with his bare hands.

62. Richard Chester Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 8:04 pm

    @58

    On Oct.4, 1913 the Washington Senators battery consisted of P Clark Griffith, age 43 years, 10 months and 14 days and C Jack Ryan, 44 years, 10 months and 22 days. In years and days it totaled 88.276. They played only for an inning so it was one of those end of the season shenanigans.
    The oldest serious battery occurred on May 22, 1930 consisting of P Jack Quinn and C Wally Schang of the Athletics with a combined age of 87.227.

    The next three oldest batteries are Joe McGinnity/Jim O'Rourke, Jack Quinn/Clyde Manion, Phil Niekro/Rick Dempsey and Satchel Paige/Billy Bryan.

63. Anon Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 8:05 pm

    RE: catcher/pitcher age - 1991 & 1992 Chisox - Carlton Fisk and Charlie Hough are both 43 and then 44 for the entire season but the knuckleball rears its ugly head - they were never battery-mates, likely because Fisk didn't want to catch the knuckler.

64. Deaner Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 8:21 pm

    @ Jimbo, Anon and especially Richard -- thanks!

    Shenanigans, indeed: Ryan had one at-bat in 1912 and 1913; he had ceased to play regularly 10 years before.

    Anyone know of a round-up of "end of season shenanigans?" Good topic.

65. mccombe35 Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 8:34 pm

    Just for fun I looked up who has the most PAs against Buehrle.

    I was very surprised by the answer. Never woulda guessed it.

    Michael Cuddyer with 99 PAs against Buehrle so far is #1

66. John Autin Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 8:43 pm

    Thattaway to cover all the bases, team! Love to hear that chatter out there on the infield.

67. Danny Boy Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 8:45 pm

    R A Dickey of the Mets is a knuckler.

68. Richard Chester Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 8:59 pm

    @62

    Of course I meant the next four oldest.

    @64

    I know of a couple but it would be straying too far off-topic.

69. Neal Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 9:03 pm

    How about the top 5 in plate appearances against Phil Niekro - Rose, Bench, Morgan, Pérez, & Concepción? Apparently he pitched a lot against the Reds...

70. Doug Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 9:19 pm

    @46 and longest period of pitcher/batter matchups

    I have 20 years, 324 days for Bonds and Maddux.

    First time: http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/PIT/PIT198609130.shtml
    Last time: http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SDN/SDN200708030.shtml

71. Artie Z Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 9:22 pm

    A twist on the batter-pitcher matchup question - any idea who has faced the MOST pitchers? It's almost certainly a recent player with all the matchup games played in the late innings.

    Example of what I mean: Omar Vizquel has faced 1418 different pitchers in his career. He's faced Roger Clemens 93 times (that's the most he's faced anyone) and he's faced 237 pitchers exactly one time. Needless to say, Vizquel facing Clemens the most times is not helping Omar's rate stats.

    For reference, Vlad Guerrero has faced "only" 1112 different pitchers so far in his career. Willie Mays (assuming his data is complete) "only" faced 642 different pitchers. Actually, Mays' data is not complete but he's only missing 259 PAs, so the maximum he could have faced is 901.

    Though maybe Mays could have faced more - in looking at Bonds' vs. pitcher I noticed that he has faced 1249 different pitchers, but the total number of PAs in the vs. pitcher log has him at 12814 PAs, which is more than his career total of 12606. I initially thought that maybe he was credited with a PA against two pitchers if they took one out who started pitching against him, but all of Bonds' PAs in the vs. pitcher log are accounted for as AB, BB, HBP, SF, or SH. Actually, all of Bonds' stats are off (he does have 4 SH in the vs. pitcher log) - the same appears to be true of other players (for some stats - Omar has too many RBI and 3Bs, possibly other stats, but the correct amount of HRs).

    So my question is: Why are these numbers off?

72. Neil L. Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 9:36 pm

    Where does runs scored factor into a a quadruple crown?

    Who could ever lead in HR/RBI/BA and RS?

73. Artie Z Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 9:39 pm

    I have now answered my own question - apparently the "vs. pitcher log" includes postseason matchups automatically. If I unclick the "include postseason" box all is right with the world.

74. Doug Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 9:41 pm

    @46, @70.

    21 years, 109 days for Steve Carlton and Tony Perez. The last matchup was Carlton's final NL game (he gave up 7 ER in 3.2 IP).

    First time: http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SLN/SLN196504180.shtml
    Last time: http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SFN/SFN198608050.shtml

75. Richard Chester Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 9:53 pm

    @72

    Babe Ruth came close several times. In 1919,1920, 1921,1923 and 1926 he led in RS, RBI and HR. In those years for BA he finished 8th, 4th, 3rd, 2nd and 2nd. In 1924 he led in RS, HR and BA and was 2nd in RBI.

76. John Autin Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 9:56 pm

    @72, Neil L. -- I'll guess that most Triple Crown winners also led in Runs.

77. Artie Z Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 9:59 pm

    Vizquel by the way has faced 1415 different pitchers in his career during the regular season. Ivan Rodriguez is the second closest I find and he's at 1360. I can't find anyone else close to that - Henderson is the next closest I find and he's still less than 1300. Checked Biggio, Rose, A-Rod, Bonds, Jeter ... is it really true that Omar Vizquel has faced the most different pitchers in MLB history? And is there an easy way to do that search?

78. John Autin Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 10:01 pm

    Followup to Neil L. @72 -- Out of 13 modern Triple Crown winners, 9 also led their league in Runs. The ones who didn't were Gehrig, Foxx, Klein and Hornsby (in one of his two TCs).

    It's 10 of 15 if you count the guys who batted from 50 feet against an underhand pitcher.

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/triple_crowns.shtml

79. John Autin Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 10:20 pm

    @77, Artie -- I guess that means Vizquel's next job will be batting coach. 🙂

80. Neil L. Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 10:34 pm

    @78
    JA, I would have guessed the "quadruple crown" was more infrequent than 9 out of 13.

    The run-scoring reality of a HR notwithstanding, why would a triple crown winner also lead in RS?

    What was behind my question was the fact that Jose Bautista might have a chance to do it this year, if he can bump his RBI total up a bit.

    But given that a triple crown winner also leads the league in RS more often than not, it is no big deal.

81. John Autin Says:
    June 9th, 2011 at 11:10 pm

    @80, Neil -- The run-scoring reality of a HR, as you put it, is a pretty big reality for the league's top HR hitter. That's maybe 30+ runs that a leadoff hitter doesn't get.

    Are you thinking that the Runs leader is more likely to be a leadoff-type?
    If you scroll through year-by-year Runs leaders...
    http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/R_leagues.shtml
    ... you'll see that there are far more middle-of-the-order hitters than leadoff guys.

    Why? My speculation: Although leadoff hitters do have an inherent edge in scoring opportunities and are usually fast, the ceiling of offensive ability is way higher for #3 and #4 hitters than for #1 hitters. And offensive ability is a far bigger factor in scoring runs than foot speed or a couple dozen extra PAs.

82. Jimbo Says:
    June 10th, 2011 at 1:22 am

    @77

    Arod, Biggio, and Jeter are not good candidates for facing the most pitchers because they only played in one league their entire career.

    Off the top of my head, I would guess Fred McGriff has a chance. I believe he holds the record for homering in the most different parks. This was due to him bounding around from league to league a fair bit while new parks were being built. But that bouinding around might help him in this category. Facing late inning lefty's also seems like it might help McGriff in this category.

83. Jimbo Says:
    June 10th, 2011 at 1:29 am

    I count 1125 pitchers for Mcgriff if I did that right.

84. Jimbo Says:
    June 10th, 2011 at 1:38 am

    1251 pitchers faced for Jim Thome. I don't see how any active player other than Vizquel will top that.

85. Doug Says:
    June 10th, 2011 at 1:53 am

    @46, 70 & 74 and longest span in pitcher/batter matchup.

    This one must surely be the record.

    Roger Clemens and Julio Franco: 23 years, 31 days.

    First: http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CLE/CLE198405150.shtml
    Last: http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/NYA/NYA200706150.shtml

86. Artie Z Says:
    June 10th, 2011 at 12:31 pm

    Per Jimbo's comments about multiple league players, I found that Griffey faced 1345 different pitchers and Sheffield 1339. Not sure how I didn't look at them before since I was looking for players who started in the late 80s and lasted a long time.

    I have one last wild card to check, though I think his career starts too early ... Julio Franco's only at 1171. I figured with the gaps in his career and with him not being a regular near the end it might have pushed up the number of different pitchers.

87. Doug Says:
    June 10th, 2011 at 4:25 pm

    @86.

    To turn it around a bit, Jamie Moyer faced 1412 batters in his career (so far). Clemens faced 1273.

88. Doug Says:
    June 10th, 2011 at 7:36 pm

    @58, @62.

    Another old battery is Terry Leach and Carlton Fisk. Their combined ages at this game (Jun 21, 1993) were: 84 years, 277 days.

    Interestingly, this game was the next to last game of each of their careers. Leach pitched to one batter to end the 7th, and Fisk was replaced in the field to start the 8th.

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CHA/CHA199306210.shtml

89. Deaner Says:
    June 10th, 2011 at 8:58 pm

    @ 88

    Quite a few graybeards, or future graybeards, played in that game, eh?

90. Harlock Says:
    June 11th, 2011 at 3:38 pm

    Huh. I figured Rickey had a pretty decent shot at "most pitchers faced," but I only counted 1210 (at least in regular-season play).