Max Alvis and Carlos Zambrano
Posted by Andy on June 3, 2011
In 1967, Max Alvis was an All-Star 3rd baseman for the Cleveland Indians. He had 697 plate appearances, a slash line of .256/.301/.403, 21 HR, and 70 RBI.
Through yesterday, Carlos Zambrano's career hitting stats are quite similar: 688 plate appearances, a slash line of .240/.248/.393, 22 HR, and 68 RBI.
It's an interesting comparison, although there isn't really much of a comparison. Alvis' season was good for a 105 OPS+ while Zambrano is at just 62 for his career. Alvis also has a significant edge in OBP, thanks in large part to 38 walks while Zambrano has managed just 8.
June 3rd, 2011 at 7:41 am
Can't wait for whomever the recent poster talking about Zambrano's catlike quickness to weigh in on this!
June 3rd, 2011 at 9:08 am
Max Alvis: Another name from my box full of 1960s baseball cards. He was another (along with Tony Conigliaro) what-could-have-been from that era. Illness sapped his strength earlier in his career.
June 3rd, 2011 at 9:17 am
My first glove was a "Max Alvis" model.
June 3rd, 2011 at 9:27 am
In 1965 Max Alvis hit 21 homers and had a slugging percentage of .397. I'm curious about how many times a player has hit 20 or more players with a slugging percentage of less than .400. That might make an interesting post.
June 3rd, 2011 at 9:28 am
Typo in my post!!!!! I meant to say "20 or more homers" not "20 or more players".
June 3rd, 2011 at 9:33 am
If you did mean "20 or more players," I would think Billy Martin would make that list...
June 3rd, 2011 at 9:36 am
Hitting twenty or more players may be an interesting topic. I was thinking maybe Ty Cobb and Billy Martin near the top of that list.
June 3rd, 2011 at 9:42 am
Holy crap...two different Steves made the same joke at the same time. Weird.
Following are the lowest SLG for a guy with 20 homers (since 1901).
It seems that most of these guys had very low batting averages, and thus their SLG are low because they didn't get a lot of other hits.
Generated 6/3/2011.
June 3rd, 2011 at 9:54 am
Given the organizational genius of the Indians in the 60's, they probably would have tried to make Zambrano a third baseman.
June 3rd, 2011 at 9:57 am
OT a bit...with Izzy getting a "W" yesterday with the Mets, 12 years after his first Met win, wondering what the biggest gap between wins with 1 team is...can you look that up?
June 3rd, 2011 at 9:58 am
#10 Not searchable in the PI but I can post a 'readers research' question about that.
June 3rd, 2011 at 10:04 am
I don't know about my co-Steve, but I was only half-joking.
June 3rd, 2011 at 10:39 am
Dave-
They were laughing about that on the local ESPN affiliate this morning, saying Paul Wilson and Bill Puhlsiper were up next.
GENERATION K!
June 3rd, 2011 at 10:44 am
Andy, in that chart, Joe Carter almost had ABs = OPS (or OPS*1000). Has that ever been done outside of tiny sample sizes? 600+ ABs at <700 OPS. YIKES! Yet, with 24 HRs and 115 RBIs, I'm sure people thought quite highly of him.
June 3rd, 2011 at 11:03 am
FWIW, Carter had a negative WAR that year, though that is a function of an amazingly bad defensive year. He had an oWAR of 1.7 and a dWAR of -3.1 for a total of -1.4. I'm surprised he was even that "high".
June 3rd, 2011 at 11:46 am
I believe Sean Smith (the designer of Total Zone) has said there are problems with the coding of plays for San Diego games around that time (or something like that). Anyway, Carter was almost certainly not nearly that bad defensively.
June 3rd, 2011 at 11:49 am
See here:
http://apps.baseballprojection.com/blog/?e=52097&d=07/25/2010&s=Evaluation%20of%20Defensive%20Projections#comment
"It's bad data. Those were some of the first years retrosheet had project scoresheet batted ball data. It looks like they had some trouble scoring consistently year to year in San Diego. I choose to use it for the league, for most teams the additional detail in the data gives you better ratings than not using them. And I will always use the same system for every team in the league, so I have to live with San Diego ratings that don't make sense. I think the Mets and Braves, to a lessor extent, have some data issues as well."
June 3rd, 2011 at 11:58 am
JT-
Makes sense. Does that impact offensive numbers or just defense?
June 3rd, 2011 at 12:35 pm
@10/11 re: Izzy's 12-year gap between Mets wins:
I don't know what the record is, but Jesse Orosco went 14 years between wins for the Dodgers (1988-2002).
June 3rd, 2011 at 12:48 pm
@10/11
Dennis Eckersley was traded by the Red Sox in midseason '84, and finished his career there in 2008. That's the farthest apart I thought of off the top of my head.
Greg Maddux matches Isringhausen, going 12 years between wins for the Cubs - left as a free agent after the '92 season, came back for 2004.
I figured Blyleven would be up there too, but he actuatlly only went 9 years between wins for the Twins.
June 3rd, 2011 at 12:49 pm
Al Leiter had 1 win in 1989 for the Yankees and then 4 wins in his return in 2005 (not sure if we are calling that 16 years inclusive/15 seasons not on Yanks 1990-2004).
June 3rd, 2011 at 12:55 pm
I'm just remembering that Raphy and I discussed this recently. I came up with Eckersley and he came up with Leiter, who he thinks holds the record. He might have posted it to the blog--not sure.
June 3rd, 2011 at 1:09 pm
BSK, I don't know. I suppose it could affect underlying information like Tony Gwynn's line drive rate or something. (I don't know enough about what data was being collected or what the flaws were.) It's certainly not going to affect any of the basic offensive stats, or numbers which are derived from those stats.
June 3rd, 2011 at 2:37 pm
depending on the situation in that table of mine I'm so confused now
June 3rd, 2011 at 3:11 pm
It's not a record but Babe Ruth went 8 years and 363 days between wins for the Yankees.
June 3rd, 2011 at 3:14 pm
Leiter does hold the record for most years in between wins with the same team, though I may be missing someone who returned to a franchise that relocated during his time away.
16 years
Al Leiter, NYA 1989-2005
14 years
Dennis Eckersley, BOS 1984-1998
Chris Hammond, CIN 1992-2006
Jesse Orosco, LAN 1988-2002 (Pitched for Dodgers in 2001, did not win)
13 years
Doug Brocail, SDN 1993-2006 (Pitched for Padres in 1994, did not win)
Jack McFetridge, PHI 1890-1903 (Did not appear in majors 1891-1902)
Harry Kelly, WS1 1925-1938 (Pitched for Senators in 1926, did not win)
Al Maul, PHI 1887-1900
12 years
Doug Brocail, HOU 1996-2008
Mark Davis, PHI 1981-1993
Greg Maddux, CHN 1992-2004
Bob (Righty) Miller, NYN 1962-1974 (Pitched for Mets in 1973, did not win)
Herb Pennock, BOS 1922-1934
Jim Perry, CLE 1962-1974 (Pitched for Indians in 1963, did not win)
Rudy Seanez, LAN 1995-2007
11 years
Joe Bush, PHA 1917-1928
David Cone, NYN 1992-2003
Danny Darwin, TEX 1984-1995
Bill Dietrich, PHA 1936-1947
Burleigh Grimes, PIT 1917-1928
Rick Honeycutt, TEX 1983-1994
Don Larsen, BAL 1954-1965
10 years
Steve Farr, CLE 1984-1994
Danny Graves, CLE 1996-2006 (Pitched for Indians in 1997, did not win)
Mike Hampton, HOU 1999-2009
Art Herring, BRO 1934-1944
Rick White, PIT 1995-2005
June 3rd, 2011 at 3:20 pm
Zambrano's 62 isn't all that good, but it sure is good for a pitcher.
I did a play index search and found 25 players who did not pitch who had at least 3000 PAs in their career and a career OPS of 62 or less. So basically he hits well enough to make it for a while as a defensive ace catcher or SS (everyone on my list spent time at either 2 or 6).
June 3rd, 2011 at 4:36 pm
Hitting 20 or more players will give you a very high SLUGGING percentage.
June 3rd, 2011 at 4:40 pm
LOL
June 3rd, 2011 at 5:26 pm
Speaking of hitting 20 players ... In the past 40 years, there have been 6 pitcher-seasons of 20 or more HBP. All 6 fell in the 4-year span of 2001-04, and 5 of the 6 featured exactly 20 HBP. The culprits:
-- Bronson Arroyo and Carlos Zambrano, 2004;
-- Kerry Wood and Victor Zambrano, 2003; and
-- Chan Ho Park and Jamey Wright, 2001.
Footnote: There have been just 2 pitchers named Zambrano in MLB history. Each one led his league in HBP once, with a total of 20. Each one led his league twice in walks, including one year leading the majors.
June 3rd, 2011 at 8:18 pm
But only one of them won the wildness triple crown (BB, HBP, and WP).
And only one of them exhibits qualities reminiscent of the feline family.
June 3rd, 2011 at 9:25 pm
@31
JT, stop taking shots at a defenceless poster! 🙂
June 3rd, 2011 at 9:34 pm
Where else can you see Max Alvis and Carlos Zambrano in the same sentence?
Hell, where else can you see a reference to Max Alvis?
I love this site.
(don't forget Retrosheet.org, where alot of the boxscores come from)
Like the old saying goes, two heads are better than one.
June 3rd, 2011 at 9:38 pm
@33
Chuck, don't stop checkin' in here.
The raw data in the PI makes and breaks reputations.
June 3rd, 2011 at 10:18 pm
Just a note on why Max Alvis never reached his potential...He had spinal meningitis in 1964 this caused him to decline prematurely...