41 Responses to “Wilson Valdez and non-pitchers getting the win”

1. Matthew Glidden Says:
   May 26th, 2011 at 9:51 am

   Wow, interesting group of guys! Totally forgot about Mayne's game. (Think you mean 19th inning instead of 13th, btw.)

2. Andy Says:
   May 26th, 2011 at 9:56 am

   Thanks for that correction, Matthew. Only on a stats like this might the readers understand--I have a strange propensity for confusing prime numbers. Isn't that weird? I confuse 13, 17, and 19 all the time.

3. Casey Says:
   May 26th, 2011 at 10:04 am

   what about Brooks Kieschnick? why doesn't he qualify?

4. Andy Says:
   May 26th, 2011 at 10:10 am

   Casey that's a good question. I will submit a bug about that.

5. Matthew Says:
   May 26th, 2011 at 10:13 am

   How is it that Brooks Kieschnick didn't make the "the most recently-active guys to record a loss" list? Is he being listed primarily as a pitcher?

6. Andy Says:
   May 26th, 2011 at 10:13 am

   Oh wait, I got it. It says on that page that the player has to have appeared in at least 5 times as many games as a non-pitcher to qualify. Kieschnick pitched in 74 games and so would need 370 games as a non-pitcher but he had only 260.

7. Matthew Says:
   May 26th, 2011 at 10:14 am

   Sorry, Casey's comment was posted after I first loaded the page and I didn't see it until after mine was posted.

8. Herlin5566 Says:
   May 26th, 2011 at 10:41 am

   I remember Eddie O'Brien primarily for his part in Ball Four...

9. Fireworks Says:
   May 26th, 2011 at 10:47 am

   You gotta love how Josh Wilson has three relief appearances in his short career. I'd say that maybe he'd get a couple more opportunities, get lucky, and get a win to end up on both lists but he doesn't seem to be playing much this year and his bat is probably too anemic for his career to last much longer given his late age (30) and that he's arbitration-eligible after next season. Though I don't know what sort of money players with negative career WAR get when they ride the pine and are arbitration-eligible and are interchangeable with 50 minor league players. But then again the Angels are giving Scioscia's pet Mathis $1.7 million this season, so, who knows.

10. John Autin Says:
    May 26th, 2011 at 12:24 pm

    Wilson Valdez is just the 3rd player since 1933 to both pitch and have at least 8 PAs in a game. The others:

    -- Felipe Lopez in last year's 20-inning Cards-Mets game.
    http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SLN/SLN201004170.shtml

    -- Jeff Hamilton in a 21-inning game in 1989.
    http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/HOU/HOU198906030.shtml

    Valdez and Hamilton each had 3 hits.

11. Anon Says:
    May 26th, 2011 at 12:40 pm

    The Josh Wilson entry has some interesting back story to it. Wilson started 2009 with the DBacks and pitched 1 scoreless inning in a 13-5 blowout loss to the Reds on May 11th. He was released shortly thereafter and picked up by the Padres where, on June 7th, he was called in to pitch in the 18th inning and proceeded to give up a 2-out, 3-run bomb to Mark Reynolds. So he lost to a team he had played/pitched for earlier in the year. I saw the game and he has a really nice delivery and some good stuff - I could see him converting.

    3 other notes on that game & Wilson:
    - the DBacks bullpen pitched 9 innings of no-hit ball to finish the game (9.1 if you include the last out of the 9th after Chad Qualls blew the save)
    - this tied for the longest game in DBacks history (18 innings against the Giants in 2001) which is only remarkable because I watched both games
    - Wilson also got in 1 inning for the Rays in 2007 so he has pitched for 3 teams in his career which HAS to be a record for position players. He was with the DBacks again this year but recently released and is now with Milwaukee so keep your eyes on Brewers boxes. . . . .

12. BSK Says:
    May 26th, 2011 at 12:48 pm

    Were any of Ankiel's pitching appearances after his transition to the OF?

13. Andy Says:
    May 26th, 2011 at 12:53 pm

    BSK, no. That's easy to see from a glimpse of his main page:

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/a/ankieri01.shtml

    Look at the Pos column under Standard Batting. He has no appearances at '1' after 2004.

14. BSK Says:
    May 26th, 2011 at 12:53 pm

    I remember reading an article a while back that when Pudge was a youngster (not sure how young, but before he played pro ball), he was a pitcher, but the coaches moved him to catcher because his arm was so strong they were afraid he would hurt someone. I don't know if he was a good pitcher, but he obvioulsy had a cannon for an arm. I'm wondering if he was ever looked at as a pitching prospect again and how his arm compared to other elite hurlers.

15. BSK Says:
    May 26th, 2011 at 12:57 pm

    Thanks, Andy. I wasn't sure if that was every position played in a given year or only positions played a certain amount of times.

    What a shame... I actually remember years back, my sister, who wasn't a baseball fan, asked if there were any young American hurlers coming up, since she only knew mostly of the older Americans or younger hispanic/latino guys who were making the most news. I mentioned Ankiel since I remember him being a pretty hot prospect who found immediate success in the league. Of course, that didn't last long. I wonder if any of his later teams ever considered a return to pitching for him. He certainly never lost his arm, as we saw from some throws he made from the OF. But obviously there is a lot more to it than that, especially when the problems are mental, as they are believed to be in Ankiel's case.

16. BSK Says:
    May 26th, 2011 at 1:01 pm

    I've argued for a while that many sports (particularly baseball and football) have become too specialized, to the point that an entire roster spot is "wasted" on a guy who contributes to a minimal amount of plays. It is my belief that NFL teams should take their 5th WR and have him practice kicking. He likely won't match the talents of an elite kicker, but he can probably provide 90% of the value with enough practice and saves the team a roster spot, which are gold in the NFL.

    In baseball, why doesn't every team employ a Rick Ankiel/Micah Owings type. I doubt they are much worse than the last guy off the bench on most teams and likely would fare better on the mound than a position player with no pitching experience. Just seems like a no-brainer to me. Ankiel might not be the best example, given that he may not be able to pitch, but you get the idea. Obviously, you don't want to block a youngster who might use that spot or get too crazy if you have a manager with a high "tinker rate", but otherwise, if that guy is rarely going to be on the field, making him multi-purpose and gain a roster spot.

17. jason Says:
    May 26th, 2011 at 1:56 pm

    16,

    i would simply have 7 or 8 starters and use them ad hoc as if the entire season were a playoff series, having them start and relieve whenever, only paying attention to pitch count when it gets above 120, and doing my best to ensure at least 3 days rest.

    players are often multi-purpose in college but they don't get all the way through the minors like that, you are asking to use a lot of non-player resources to develop that prospect to mlb replacement level at either pitcher or their other position. you would basically have to draft an entire team of two-way prospects. although i am sure with work many current major league pitchers could be repectable position players, such as tim hudson, who was the star ss at clemson, etc.

18. Johnny Twisto Says:
    May 26th, 2011 at 2:08 pm

    BSK, I remember Ankiel said a few years back that he didn't want to pitch anymore.

19. Whiz Says:
    May 26th, 2011 at 2:08 pm

    Speaking of versatility, that reminds me of the 4 players who played all 9 positions in one game. I'm sure a lot of you know these games already, but in looking back at them today, a few things struck me about each one:

    1965-09-08 Bert Campaneris is the first to do it, playing one inning at each position through the 9th, then he left the game as it went to extra innings. He made an error in RF in the 6th that lead to an unearned run and allowed a run while pitching in the 8th, otherwise the A's probably would have won in regulation. While pitching he allowed a hit and two walks, but avoided further damage with a strike'em out, throw'em out to end the inning. He also had a number of other fielding chances and allowed a SB while catching. The A's lost in the 13th (not that it mattered -- they were 51-87 coming in to the game).

    1968-09-22 Cesar Tovar does it next, also playing one position per inning as the Twins beat the A's 2-1. Tovar played the positions almost in numerical order (1-2-3-4-6-5-7-8-9), and pitched to Bert Campaneris to start the game; he walked Danny Cater with two out and balked him to second, but got out of the inning unscathed by getting Sal Bando to foul out to 1B. He had PO at 2B, CF and LF, and an assist at 1B.

    2000-09-06 Scott Sheldon does it with Texas, who lost to the White Sox 13-1. The odd thing about this game is that he entered as a C in the 4th (the Rangers were already down 10-1 at that point). He played 1B in the 5th, 2B and SS in the 6th, RF and CF in the 7th. He pitched a third of an inning in the 8th, striking out Jeff Liefer, sandwiched between a one-out stint in LF and at 3B. Texas wasn't in the field in the 9th since they were the losing visiting team. I think the only fielding chances he had were as C.

    2000-10-01 Shane Halter was the last to do it. He played one position per inning through the 7th inning (3-5-9-8-7-6-2), but only pitched to one batter in the 8th (issuing a walk) before moving to 2B, where he started the double play that got them out of the inning. He remained at 2B for the rest of the game. He had a number of fielding chances as well with no errors, and scored the winning run in the bottom of the 9th.

20. Doug Says:
    May 26th, 2011 at 2:41 pm

    @19

    These games, where a player moves from one postion to another each inning, seem like last-day-of-the-season "shenanigans", for which there is something of a tradition, especially in the old days. But three of these games, while in September, were well before the final days of the season.

    Somehow that bugs me - not deploying your team to their best advantage - even if there is no implication for the pennant race, and especially if there's still a few weeks to go in the season.

21. 704_Brave Says:
    May 26th, 2011 at 2:49 pm

    @17 - Tim Hudson played at Auburn, not Clemson...wrong Tigers there 🙂

22. Johnny Twisto Says:
    May 26th, 2011 at 3:00 pm

    How do I clearly remember Halter playing every position, but not Sheldon who did it just weeks earlier? I don't even remember Sheldon's existence.

23. BSK Says:
    May 26th, 2011 at 3:44 pm

    Jason-

    You wouldn't have to "create" these players. Just use the ones who come along naturally. Every now and then you get a guy who can't really cut it as either a pitcher or a hitter, but would probably work as a 25th guy off the bench. Think Dontrelle Willis or Micah Owings. You are right that developing these players would be more trouble then they are worth. But tell me why Dontrelle Willis can't sit at the end of the bench and pinch hit here and there and perform mop up duty when needed? The Mets used a pitcher to pinch hit the other day (I think he hit a triple, surprisingly!) and it has happened other times as well, but I doubt any of them were the hitter Willis is. And my hunch would be that Willis would fare better than Wilson Valdez if the need arose.

24. Devon & His 1982 Topps blog Says:
    May 26th, 2011 at 4:14 pm

    What about most recently active to record a no decision? I ask, 'cause last year I found a game from June 25, 1984, where Gary Hancock threw 1 1/3 perfect innings to finish the game but his team lost 16-0. So he gave one of the best pitching performances by a non-pitcher, but got a no decision. I've been wondering who the best non-pitching pitcher is, since it came up in the comments on my blog.

25. Andy Says:
    May 26th, 2011 at 4:18 pm

    Devon, of course the major of non-pitcher pitching appearances do not involve a decision since most come in lopsided games like the one you cite. So there would be a lot to choose from there.

26. Phil Haberkorn in Indiana Says:
    May 26th, 2011 at 5:31 pm

    I can see some value where the management would "develop" a guy's abilities, as for example how the Cubs might let Carlos Zambrano start pinch-hitting way more often to build up his credentials for a trade to an American League team, where he could be used as their DH in between pitching starts. As the end of his contract approaches, I'd be looking to get something of value in return for him, and since he obviously loves hitting more than pitching, it would be an incentive for him to waive his no-trade clause (if he has one).

27. Phil Haberkorn in Indiana Says:
    May 26th, 2011 at 5:34 pm

    I wonder how many of these guys actually have a baseball card that shows them pitching IN THE PHOTO?
    I have several copies of Doug Dascenzo's card, but I seem to recall seeing at least one other years ago, can't remember who.

28. Biff Says:
    May 26th, 2011 at 6:18 pm

    I remember the Mayne victory; it was broadcast on TBS. I'm not a Braves fan, but I sure miss all that extra baseball that was available to watch.

29. Dukeofflatbush Says:
    May 26th, 2011 at 10:16 pm

    @ Whiz

    Jose Oquendo definitely played all 9 in a game for Whitey and the Cards, just not sure which year.

    @BSK

    I think it would be more feasible to have a lefty specialist who could play one of the corner outfield positions, or at least play it as well as Manny Ramirez (who would get defensively replaced anyway). Then you could leave your starter in, let your lefty left fielder come in for David Ortiz or Jim Thome and your starter goes out to left, then switch again when appropriate.
    The Mets did this once in a playoff game, using Orosco and McDowell, and it worked. It always bothered me so much that the Mets or Davey Johnson didn't try that again.

30. Marc Says:
    May 26th, 2011 at 10:24 pm

    @19: Cookie Rojas played all 9 in his career and was one short (1B) of playing all in a season.

    Andy, remember the '71 Phillies had a utility man named Bobby Pfeil? He played all 8 positions in one game at Eugene (AAA) in 1970 but they didn't allow him to pitch as he wanted due to some rule about having to have been listed in the lineup card as an eligible pitcher, whatever that's supposed to mean.

31. Marc Says:
    May 26th, 2011 at 10:30 pm

    @29: Oquendo played all in a season but not in the same game and also had a season where he was one position short (C.)

32. Evan Says:
    May 26th, 2011 at 11:06 pm

    Re: Ankiel,

    Tony LaRussa was asked during the offseason about the 20 inning game referenced above and said he would have called upon Ankiel to pitch instead of Lopez and Mather had he been on the roster (and still in the game).

33. MCT Says:
    May 26th, 2011 at 11:21 pm

    Looking at the list of the ten who won a game, I'm struck that it's a pretty eclectic bunch. Aside from Alvarez, there are only two other players on the list who fit the mold of a position player who was used as an emergency pitcher on a small number of occasions. Those two are Brent Mayne and Rocky Colavito.

    At the other end of the spectrum, there are three players who broke into the majors as pitchers but were converted into position players: Rick Ankiel, Willie Smith and Johnny Lindell. Smith is interesting in that he seems to have made the switch in mid-season. Smith pitched in a few games several years later, but all of his major league victories came at a time when he was exclusively a pitcher. Lindell would later prolong his career by converting back to a pitcher, but he did not pitch in any games during the portion of his career when he was a position player.

    Ben Chapman broke into the majors as position player, had a lengthy run in that capacity, then was able to prolong his career by switching to pitching. Towards the end, he evolved into kind of hybrid of the two, but all eight of his major league victories came while playing for the Dodgers in 1944-45; while with Brooklyn, he was used exclusively as a pitcher.

    The remaining three players fall somewhere in between. Both O'Brien brothers broke in as position players, then went through a phase where it looked like Pittsburgh was toying with converting them into pitchers, but never quite got all the way there (Johnny came the closest, being used exclusively as a pitcher for the second half of the 1957 season, although his single major league victory did not come in that period). Eddie's sole major league victory came in a contest in which he started and threw a complete game, in a season in which he only played in three games at the major league level, all as a pitcher. In the minors that season, however, he was primarily a position player. If the O'Briens weren't exactly full-time pitchers at the time of their major league victories, their usage as pitchers was much more substantial than the likes of Alvarez, Mayne and Colavito.

    Foxx is similarly hard to define. Nine of his ten pitching appearances came in 1945, his last season in the majors, with the Phillies (or were they the Blue Jays at that point?). All were in or after July, most later in the season. His sole major league victory was in a game that he started and went 6 2/3 innings. At no point in the season was he ever really used exclusively as a pitcher, though.

34. Whiz Says:
    May 27th, 2011 at 12:39 am

    Duke @29

    I thought Oquendo had too, but as Marc said he played all positions in a season (1988), but not in the same game. According to the gamelogs, the most positions he played in a single game in 1988 was three.

35. Nash Bruce Says:
    May 27th, 2011 at 6:09 am

    @29: I think that ties in with the recent thread (last week sometime?) which concerned pitchers-playing outfield-pitching, in the same game. I guess, that I agree, when it comes to players, pitchers even, the more talents, that are accessible, the better:)

36. Mets Maven Says:
    May 27th, 2011 at 8:49 am

    @30

    Bobby Pfiel was one of the Miracle Mets of 1969.

37. Tmckelv Says:
    May 27th, 2011 at 10:14 am

    One of my favorite baseball cards depicts 2 of the guys from the list.

    1954 Topps #139 - The O'Brien Brothers

    http://www.vintagecardprices.com/card-profile/67537/1954-Topps-OBrien-Brothers-139-Baseball-Card-Value-Prices.htm

38. Dukeofflatbush Says:
    May 27th, 2011 at 10:35 am

    PS

    I think John Olerud was pitcher of the Year in college.

39. Pakistan Prices Says:
    May 28th, 2011 at 6:48 am

    Rick Ankiel is the best!!

40. Rich Says:
    June 1st, 2011 at 12:06 am

    I'd just like to chime in that I LOVE this thread! I live in the northeast, we get Yankees broadcasts as our "home" station, and I have been a Josh Wilson SUPER-FAN since his days with the Rays! He's just fun to watch; he just "tries hard". I've always wanted to see him get a shot in Boston (ala Nick Green a few years back), but he never made it out of Pawtucket. Regardless, I'm just glad to see he's still getting opportunities to keep playing. I'll keep following the minor league transactions; keep an eye on him! He had a MONSTER game with his pink bat for the M's last Mothers' Day, too!

41. Rich Says:
    June 1st, 2011 at 12:06 am

    .