Pitchers with multiple seasons with ERA+ above 120 and below 80
Posted by Andy on May 24, 2011
Since 1901, there are just 11 pitchers who have at least two seasons with an ERA+ of 120 or better as well as two seasons with an ERA+ of 80 or worse (minimum 150 IP in each season):
| ▴ |
|---|
| Al Orth |
| Bob Knepper |
| Bobo Newsom |
| Dave Roberts |
| Dennis Martinez |
| Early Wynn |
| Ed Brandt |
| Jack Morris |
| Livan Hernandez |
| Rube Marquard |
| Steve Carlton |
Quite a varied group, there.
Dennis Martinez was a remarkably average pitcher for the first several years of his career and then saw an extended dip in his performance (which I believe he attributed to alcoholism). Then he joined the Expos and posted all of his best seasons from the late 1980s to the mid 1990s.
Livan Hernandez also posted his best seasons with the Expos, with his two 150 IP, 120 ERA+ seasons coming in 2003 and 2004. He's had plenty of below-average seasons peppered throughout his career.
Jack Morris is more what you might expect, having an off year in 1989 (ERA+ of 79) and a bad year in his last season with 150 IP (1993, 70 ERA+). Meanwhile he had 5 seasons earlier in his career with an ERA+ of 120+, plus a bonus renaissance in 1992 (125).
Steve Carlton's subpars year all came at the end as he was moving from team to team. Part of me would like to forget that Carlton pitched at all in the bigs in 1986-1988.
May 24th, 2011 at 10:39 am
I thought Red Ruffing might be on the list but he was a better pitcher for the Red Sox than his record might have indicated. But he also showed remarkably sustained improvement almost every year until he was in his mid-30's. Carlton & Morris just pitched a season or 2 too many, although Morris did have a mid-career mini-slump too. El Presidente has the oddest career path- he started out fine & pitched several good years and then went into the toilet during what are usually a players peak performance seasons then turned it around and was outstanding for almost a decade.
May 24th, 2011 at 11:06 am
@1
I believe El Presidente's mid-career problems were with the bottle.
May 24th, 2011 at 1:24 pm
@2
Just as Andy says (need to read the whole post).
May 24th, 2011 at 3:08 pm
@3
I'm not sure there was any text on the original post- at least, I missed it too if it was there
May 24th, 2011 at 3:47 pm
I don't know if el Presidente completely abstained from alcohol in the latter (impressive) part of his career, but if he did the most impressive thing to me is that he was able to quit while continuing to play in a baseball culture where alcohol and opportunities are available every day and night.
May 24th, 2011 at 3:55 pm
How come Javier Vazqez didn't make this list? He had 4 seasons of 120+ era+ and he had two seasons of 80 or below? 1998, 172 innings pitched, era+ 69, 2010, 157.1 innings pitched, era+ 80. Vazquez actually had 3 seasons with an era+ of 130 or above and 3 seasons with an era+ of 92 or below. That's just a very strange career of being Great and being lousy.
I completely forgot Carlton was on the 1987 Twins. I guess he was so awful in the two months he pitched with the Twins that they didn't even put him on the post season roster? It's strange but there must be a '87 Twins WS ring with Carlton's name on it.
One of the strangest bb pictures I've seen was Carlton in a S.F. Giants uniform at Candlestick Park as he recorded his 4000th strikeout.
May 24th, 2011 at 4:30 pm
Must be a rounding issue with Vazquez.
May 24th, 2011 at 5:00 pm
Just noticed something very unusual about Hernandez--his career record currently stands at an even 169-169. His records for the three teams for which he pitched the most: 65-65 (WSN), 45-45 (SFG), 24-24 (FLA). Weird.
May 24th, 2011 at 5:52 pm
Steve Carlton is my favorite baseball player, and I'd rather not think about his career from 1985-88. He was out most of 1985 with a rotator cuff injury, but then pitched reasonably well, despite his 1-8 record. In 1986 he got off to a bad start, and the Phillies released him when he was just 18 strikeouts away from 4,000. He was picked up by the Giants, got strikeout number 4,000, and promptly retired. (I agree with John Q., seeing Lefty in a Giants uniform is just weird.) He probably should have stayed retired at this point. But for whatever reason he signed with the White Sox and actually pitched pretty well for the rest of the year. He had a crummy 1987, which is exactly why the Twins didn't keep him on the post-season roster. There's a photo of Carlton at the White House with the rest of the World Series-winning Twins and the caption calls him an "unidentified Secret Service agent." Um, nope, that's a 4-time Cy Young award winner and future Hall of Famer. I don't know why Carlton came back for 1988, he appeared in 4 games with the Twins, was ineffective, and was then released.
May 24th, 2011 at 7:19 pm
Mark T,
If you google "steve carlton 4000th K" there's the photo of him in a Giants uniform at Candlestick.
I always found it a bit odd that the Phillies just released him 18 k short of 4000 k's. It just seems really dumb in retrospect. The Mets were running away with the division and Carlton was one of the best players in Phillies history. And Carlton would be only the second pitcher in BB history to accomplish 4000 k's in 1986. And seriously who did they have to take his spot in the rotation anyway? Charles Hudson or Mike Maddox?
They could have waited until he got his 4000th K and then released him.
Talk about weird, there were two games the White Sox played in August of 1986 with Carlton on the mound and George Foster in left field.
Another weird set of lineups with the '86 White Sox were the 9 games Tom Seaver started with Bobby Bonilla playing left, right or 1b. In 3 of those game Carlton Fisk played LEFT FIELD, talk about weird.
You left out the part where Carlton played with Phil Niekro on the Cleveland Indians in 1987.
Carlton did have an odd career when you think about it. He had 5 seasons (150 innings pitched) above 150 era+ and 4 seasons (150 innings pitched) below 100 era+ and two of those seasons were below 80.
May 24th, 2011 at 7:33 pm
Jim Bunning doesn't miss by too much. Many years at 120+, then 1968 at 75 in 160IP, and 1971 at an ERA+ of 65. But he only pitched 110 innings in 1971, so he misses out.
May 24th, 2011 at 7:43 pm
May 24th, 2011 at 8:02 pm
@12 Good one Andy. That just looks so weird.
It looks like this photo was taken between July 17-20 1986 when the Giants were playing the Cubs.
In retrospect the '86 Cubs had some interesting names on that roster: Dennis Eckersly, Jamie Moyer, Greg Maddux and Raphael Palmeiro. And Then Davey Lopes was actually playing third base for the Cubs at the time??
There's also a photo floating around with Carlton in his last game as a Giant getting his 4000th k at Candlestick.
May 24th, 2011 at 8:46 pm
Robby Thompson in the background.
May 24th, 2011 at 10:42 pm
Dennis Martinez, the best starting pitcher ever to never win more than 16 games?
May 24th, 2011 at 10:45 pm
I expected to see Wakefield on this list. But his 2010 season just misses your cutoff, and the offensive era and park he pitched in cause his ERA+ to be significantly better than his raw stats make you think at first glance.
May 24th, 2011 at 11:53 pm
I was figuring that the Redlegs' pair of aces in the forties -- Walters and Derringer -- might make this list; but it looks like their worst seasons were more abreations than I thought.
May 25th, 2011 at 2:56 am
Really expected to see Frank Tanana on this list, he had plenty over 120 but only one under 80.
May 25th, 2011 at 6:48 am
I guessed Koosman, Tiant, and Carlton.
May 25th, 2011 at 9:55 am
@15 Jimbo,
Martinez probably would have won more than 16 had it not been for the 1981 strike.
I guess technically Mariano Rivera (53.9 WAR) is the best pitcher to never win more than 16 games, he never even won more than 8 games.
If you're talking about Starters, then it looks like Dennis Martinez (46.9 WAR) was the best never to win 16 games.
Jon Matlack (38.7 WAR) never won more than 16 games even though he had 3 seasons of 8.6, 6.7, and 6.1 WAR. He's probably one of the most unlucky pitchers of all time. I think he's the only pitcher to lead the Majors in WAR (1974-8.6) and have a losing record. And I think he's the only pitcher to lead the majors in WAR and not receive a single Cy Young vote.
@19 Soundbounder,
Koosman had 6 seasons of 120+ or over and had 3 seasons of 100+ or lower. The closest he got to 80+ was 1972 with an 81+ and 1983 with 88+.
Tiant had 8 seasons of 120+ or higher and actually had one season of 171+ and another at 186+! He only had one season below 100+, a 99+ in 1965. I've never really understood why he's not in the HOF.
May 25th, 2011 at 10:07 am
@20 JohnQ,
I thought of Tiant because he struggled in the early '70's (as did Koosman), and then hung around too long at the end of his career. But he never had the IP in those years he struggled.
Oh BTW, Matlack won 16 games in 1975 and 17 games in 1976
May 25th, 2011 at 2:06 pm
@ 21 Soundbounder,
Good catch on Matlack in '76, I thought he only won 16 games in 1976. The question by Jimbo was "over" 16 games so I didn't include 1975.
Matlack had 3 seasons of 145 era+, 149 era+, and 169 era+ in 1972, 74 and 1978. In those 3 seasons he had a record of 43-38 which is just mind-boggling. His 149 era+ in 1974 doesn't even tell the whole story because the Mets had a horrible defensive outfield that year with C. Jones, Staub, Hahn and Theodore.
He also suffered from terrible bad luck in the form of horrible run support. In 1972 he was 38/50 in run support, in 1974 he was 50/52 in run support, and in 1978 he was 58/60 in run support.
Tiant deserved a better fate than his 9-20 record in 1969, He struggled but that Indians team was pretty terrible.
He was traded to the Twins and I think he broke his leg. The Twins just released him which is a very strange move for baseball of that time period. The Red Sox signed him and Tiant became one of the dominant pitchers in the AL from 1972-1978. It's one of the greatest acquisitions in the last 40 years.
May 25th, 2011 at 5:06 pm
John Q:
According to the Interwebs, the Phillies released Carlton to make room for Bruce Ruffin. I've always thought it was a lame move to release Lefty when he was so close to 4,000, I don't get it why they couldn't have waited. There's an odd video on YouTube of the Phillies retiring Carlton's number 32 right after they released him!
How strange would it have been if Carlton and Tom Seaver had pitched together on the 1986 White Sox? They just missed each other by a few weeks.
Yes, I left out Carlton pitching for the Indians in 1987, and appearing in the same game as Phil Niekro, which was the first time that 2 pitchers with more than 300 wins appeared in the same game pitching for the same team.
May 25th, 2011 at 11:40 pm
@23 Mark T,
I don't think a team would ever just release a player right before he reached a milestone like 4000 K's in today's baseball. You would think today's teams are much more savvy about things like that. Today's teams would probably milk that for as much as they could get. Also, there's a lot more media in today's baseball.
That would have been strange to see Seaver & Carlton as team-mates on the '86 White Sox. It's strange to see Seaver and Fisk in White Sox photos. I've seen photos of Seaver and Greg Luzinski in White Sox uniforms which again is odd. There's also photos of Fisk with Jerry Koosman on the 1981-1983 White Sox.
Seaver and Koosman were actually White Sox team-mates from January 20, 1984 until February 14 1984. Koosman was traded to the Phillies on Feb 15th. I always thought there was something odd about that. Maybe Koosman wasn't to happy about being team-mates with Seaver and he asked for a trade.
Seeing Jerry Koosman in a Phillies uniform is something very strange. A really strange photo is Pete Rose on the EXPOS against Jerry Koosman on the Phillies getting his 4000th hit.
May 26th, 2011 at 1:27 am
@ 24 John Q.,
I think you're right, a team nowadays would never cut someone that close to a major milestone. There's certainly a lot more media hype surrounding milestones, and I would think a team would want to exploit that as much as they could. It's always amazing to me to see how few people were at some major events. Like Carlton's 4,000th strikeout, the attendance for that game was 17,000. The attendance for Harmon Killebrew's 500th home run was 15,000. Ted Williams' last game was only seen by 10,000 people. I think now all those games would be sellouts. You can bet that the game Derek Jeter gets 3,000 hits will be a sellout.
I agree, Pete Rose getting his 4,000th hit in an Expos jersey is just so weird. Why didn't the Reds pick him up at that time? I have a couple of baseball cards that show Rose as an Expo, I had to buy them just because it's so weird. Koosman as a Phillie is pretty odd too, kind of like how Jim Kaat was a Phillie for a couple of years. Maybe the Phillies liked pitchers whose last names started with K who had previously played for the Twins.
May 26th, 2011 at 6:49 am
Looking back, it seems about right, to me, that the Phils did what they did, with Carlton. Coming off of the glory years, Phils fans got to watch discards Ryne Sandberg and Julio Franco go on to great careers, while being treated to the likes of Rick Schu, Jeff Stone, John Russell, and so on. (Incidentally, I think, that B.Ruffin had a decent half-a-season or so in '86.....a case of the broken clock being right, twice a day??)
My opinion: The Phils had to have been (well, ok, maybe along with the Yankees), by far the most dysfunctional franchise in the majors, at that time.
May 26th, 2011 at 11:56 am
Mark T,
Yeah, it's all whole different ballgame now as far as teams being savvy with merchandising and marketing and media exposure. It's hard to remember it now but ESPN was kind of a joke network during the mid-80's. They didn't have the rights to broadcast baseball so they would broadcast things like Dart championships, Rodeos, and Australian Rules Football. Now you have ESPN, MLB network, and tons of sports related networks all over cable and satellite t.v.
It seemed like it really changed when Ripken broke Gehrig's record in 1995. Also, teams didn't have their own networks like they do today. Look at how much attention Jeter received when he passed Gehrig with the Yankee hit record. To put it into context he still hadn't even passed Harold Baines on the all time hit list.
Look at how much attention the Mets gave Tom Glavine when he won his 300th game back in '07. Going back to 1983, the Mets re-acquired Tom Seaver and left him Unprotected in the free-agent compensation draft. He was only 27 wins away from 300 and he was picked up by the White Sox. If that were today the Mets would milk those 27 wins for every dollar they could get. There would be a huge countdown board, etc.
The strangest milestone I could think of was Eddie Mathews being traded by the Braves to the Astros only 7 HR away from 500. When Mathews hit his 500th there were only 7 players with 500+ HR in baseball history. It's unfathomable that a team would trade one of their all time franchise players 7 HR short of a major career milestone like that.
Mathews did it as a member of the Astros against the SF Giants at Candlestick park. I can't even find a photo of the event let alone any video of the game. Think about the players in that game, Juan Marichal pitched for the Giants and Mays and McCovey both played and Gaylord Perry was a pinch runner in the game. On the Astros side they had Joe Morgan, Jimmy Wynn, Rusty Staub and Eddie Mathews. Imagine how much a video of that event would be worth today??
As far as Rose goes he was at 3990 hits when the Phillies released him at the end of the '83 season. I not sure why they did that as well. The Reds could have signed him during the winter of '83-84, instead he went to the Expos and the Reds traded for him in August of '84. Another odd mix with those '84 teams was that Al Oliver was with the Phillies and Dan Driessen was on the Expost.
May 26th, 2011 at 12:22 pm
@26 Nash Bruce,
The Phillies also traded Lonnie Smith for nothing. Smith was a good player and had a few great years in '82, '89-90. And he had two big WS, one for the Cardinals in '82 and one for the Royals in '85.
The Phillies made the mistake of trying to build their team around Von Hayes & Juan Samuel. Hayes was a good solid player but not the type of Franchise player you could build a team around. The Phillies and the rest of baseball also greatly overrated Juan Samuel as a player.
The Phillies were pretty much a dysfunctional franchise from the end of the 1981 season until Pat Gillick took over before the 2006 season. 1983 was kind of fluke with John Denny having an out of the blue career CY Young season and a relatively mediocre NL East. From 1984 through 2007 they only won 90 games once in the 1993 season. '93 was a very fluky type of outlier season.
As far as PR goes, yeah releasing Carlton 18 shy of 4000k and Rose 10 hits 4000 hits seams pretty odd.
I never really understood Schmidt's early retirement in the 1989 season as well.