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Chet Lemon

Posted by Steve Lombardi on January 4, 2011

I was just foolin'round with Play Index - looking for the best "relatively short career" guys not in the Hall of Fame. And, I came up with this list:

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Rk Player WAR/pos PA From To Age G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB IBB SO HBP SH SF GDP SB CS BA OBP SLG OPS Pos Tm
1 Mark McGwire 63.1 7660 1986 2001 22-37 1874 6187 1167 1626 252 6 583 1414 1317 150 1596 75 3 78 147 12 8 .263 .394 .588 .982 *3/D54967 OAK-TOT-STL
2 Shoeless Joe Jackson 62.9 5690 1908 1920 18-30 1332 4981 873 1772 307 168 54 785 519 0 158 59 131 0 0 202 81 .356 .423 .517 .940 798/3 PHA-CLE-TOT-CHW
3 Dick Allen 61.2 7314 1963 1977 21-35 1749 6332 1099 1848 320 79 351 1119 894 138 1556 16 19 53 164 133 52 .292 .378 .534 .912 357/468D PHI-STL-LAD-CHW-OAK
4 Mike Piazza 59.1 7745 1992 2007 23-38 1912 6911 1048 2127 344 8 427 1335 759 146 1113 30 0 45 229 17 20 .308 .377 .545 .922 *2D/3 LAD-TOT-NYM-SDP-OAK
5 Norm Cash 52.9 7910 1958 1974 23-39 2089 6705 1046 1820 241 41 377 1103 1043 112 1091 90 17 55 139 43 30 .271 .374 .488 .862 *3/97 CHW-DET
6 Minnie Minoso 52.8 7710 1949 1980 23-54 1835 6579 1136 1963 336 83 186 1023 814 23 584 192 68 57 185 205 130 .298 .389 .459 .848 *75/983D6 CLE-TOT-CHW-STL-WSA
7 Chet Lemon 49.9 7872 1975 1990 20-35 1988 6868 973 1875 396 61 215 884 749 46 1024 151 50 54 174 58 76 .273 .355 .442 .797 *89/D547 CHW-DET
8 Gene Tenace 48.7 5525 1969 1983 22-36 1555 4390 653 1060 179 20 201 674 984 58 998 91 21 39 77 36 42 .241 .388 .429 .817 *23/594D7 OAK-SDP-STL-PIT
9 Fred Lynn 47.3 7923 1974 1990 22-38 1969 6925 1063 1960 388 43 306 1111 857 77 1116 30 25 86 149 72 54 .283 .360 .484 .845 *897/D BOS-CAL-BAL-TOT-DET-SDP
10 Larry Doyle 47.2 7382 1907 1920 20-33 1766 6509 960 1887 299 123 74 793 625 0 274 53 195 0 0 298 41 .290 .357 .408 .765 *4 NYG-TOT-CHC
11 Rocky Colavito 46.4 7559 1955 1968 21-34 1841 6503 971 1730 283 21 374 1159 951 58 880 29 16 60 182 19 27 .266 .359 .489 .848 *97/31 CLE-DET-KCA-TOT
12 Heinie Groh 46.4 7035 1912 1927 22-37 1676 6074 918 1774 308 87 26 566 696 0 345 83 182 0 0 180 83 .292 .373 .384 .757 *54/6 NYG-TOT-CIN-PIT
13 Jim Fregosi 46.1 7402 1961 1978 19-36 1902 6523 844 1726 264 78 151 706 715 48 1097 32 79 53 125 76 40 .265 .338 .398 .736 *635/D74 LAA-CAL-NYM-TOT-TEX-PIT
14 Dixie Walker 45.1 7666 1931 1949 20-38 1905 6740 1037 2064 376 96 105 1023 817 0 325 16 93 0 81 59 10 .306 .383 .437 .820 *987/3 NYY-TOT-CHW-DET-BRO-PIT
15 Jimmy Sheckard 44.6 7657 1901 1913 22-34 1772 6339 1055 1717 297 105 45 621 994 0 233 54 270 0 0 345 12 .271 .374 .372 .746 *7/9584 BRO-TOT-CHC
16 Roy White 44.5 7735 1965 1979 21-35 1881 6650 964 1803 300 51 160 758 934 66 708 29 53 69 123 233 117 .271 .360 .404 .764 *7D/89534 NYY
17 Augie Galan 44.0 7003 1934 1949 22-37 1742 5937 1004 1706 336 74 100 830 979 0 393 25 62 0 72 123 0 .287 .390 .419 .810 *78/35496 CHC-TOT-BRO-CIN
18 Matt Williams 43.9 7595 1987 2003 21-37 1866 7000 997 1878 338 35 378 1218 469 86 1363 55 9 62 182 53 35 .268 .317 .489 .805 *56/3D SFG-CLE-ARI
19 Wally Schang 43.8 6423 1913 1931 23-41 1842 5307 769 1506 264 90 59 710 849 0 573 107 160 0 0 121 49 .284 .393 .401 .794 *2/78596 PHA-BOS-NYY-SLB-DET
20 Bobby Veach 43.6 7557 1912 1925 24-37 1821 6656 953 2063 393 147 64 1166 571 0 367 59 271 0 0 195 88 .310 .370 .442 .812 *7/981 DET-BOS-TOT
21 Vern Stephens 43.5 7240 1941 1955 20-34 1720 6497 1001 1859 307 42 247 1174 692 0 685 6 37 8 169 25 22 .286 .355 .460 .815 *65/79 SLB-BOS-TOT-BAL
22 Thurman Munson 43.4 5903 1969 1979 22-32 1423 5344 696 1558 229 32 113 701 438 59 571 42 21 58 160 48 50 .292 .346 .410 .756 *2/D9375 NYY
23 Bill Freehan 43.3 6899 1961 1976 19-34 1774 6073 706 1591 241 35 200 758 626 67 753 114 38 48 138 24 21 .262 .340 .412 .752 *23/D79 DET
24 Larry Gardner 43.0 7685 1908 1924 22-38 1923 6688 867 1931 301 129 27 934 654 0 282 32 311 0 0 165 91 .289 .355 .384 .739 *54/6 BOS-PHA-CLE
25 Dolph Camilli 43.0 6352 1933 1945 26-38 1490 5353 936 1482 261 86 239 950 947 0 961 28 24 0 80 60 0 .277 .388 .492 .880 *3 CHC-TOT-PHI-BRO-BOS
26 Darryl Strawberry 42.9 6326 1983 1999 21-37 1583 5418 898 1401 256 38 335 1000 816 131 1352 38 1 53 64 221 99 .259 .357 .505 .862 *9D/78 NYM-LAD-SFG-NYY
27 Art Fletcher 42.8 6039 1909 1922 24-37 1533 5541 684 1534 238 77 32 675 203 0 348 141 154 0 0 160 46 .277 .319 .365 .684 *6/54 NYG-TOT-PHI
28 Brian Giles 42.7 7835 1995 2009 24-38 1847 6527 1121 1897 411 55 287 1078 1183 114 835 51 4 70 160 109 45 .291 .400 .502 .902 978/D CLE-PIT-TOT-SDP
29 Nomar Garciaparra 42.6 6116 1996 2009 22-35 1434 5586 927 1747 370 52 229 936 403 54 554 59 5 63 129 95 31 .313 .361 .521 .882 *63/5D4 BOS-TOT-CHC-LAD-OAK
30 George Foster 42.5 7812 1969 1986 20-37 1977 7023 986 1925 307 47 348 1239 666 106 1419 52 3 68 196 51 31 .274 .338 .480 .818 *789/D3 SFG-TOT-CIN-NYM
31 Tony Oliva 42.4 6879 1962 1976 23-37 1676 6301 870 1917 329 48 220 947 448 131 645 59 14 57 139 86 55 .304 .353 .476 .830 *9D/874 MIN
32 Andy Van Slyke 41.6 6478 1983 1995 22-34 1658 5711 835 1562 293 91 164 792 667 55 1063 27 12 61 94 245 59 .274 .349 .443 .792 *89/735 STL-PIT-TOT
33 Lenny Dykstra 41.5 5282 1985 1996 22-33 1278 4559 802 1298 281 43 81 404 640 50 503 31 25 27 39 285 72 .285 .375 .419 .793 *8/7 NYM-TOT-PHI
34 Chuck Knoblauch 41.2 7385 1991 2002 22-33 1632 6366 1132 1839 322 64 98 615 804 22 730 139 20 56 116 407 117 .289 .378 .406 .783 *47/D68 MIN-NYY-KCR
35 Ben Chapman 41.2 7420 1930 1946 21-37 1717 6478 1144 1958 407 107 90 977 824 0 556 26 92 0 52 287 135 .302 .383 .440 .823 897/5416 NYY-TOT-BOS-CLE-BRO-PHI
36 Del Pratt 40.8 7609 1912 1924 24-36 1836 6826 856 1996 392 117 43 968 513 0 360 37 233 0 0 247 138 .292 .345 .403 .748 *4/365987 SLB-NYY-BOS-DET
37 Darrell Porter 40.6 6570 1971 1987 19-35 1782 5539 765 1369 237 48 188 826 905 106 1025 45 18 63 102 39 37 .247 .354 .409 .763 *2D/3 MIL-KCR-STL-TEX
38 Jack Fournier 40.5 6033 1912 1927 22-37 1530 5208 822 1631 252 113 136 859 587 0 408 89 149 0 0 146 96 .313 .392 .483 .875 *3/7981 CHW-NYY-STL-BRO-BSN
39 Wally Berger 40.0 5663 1930 1940 24-34 1350 5163 809 1550 299 59 242 898 435 0 693 38 27 0 69 36 0 .300 .359 .522 .881 *87/39 BSN-TOT-CIN
40 Gil McDougald 40.0 5395 1951 1960 23-32 1336 4676 697 1291 187 51 112 576 559 8 623 36 97 27 93 45 44 .276 .356 .410 .766 456 NYY
41 Don Mattingly 39.8 7721 1982 1995 21-34 1785 7003 1007 2153 442 20 222 1099 588 136 444 21 13 96 191 14 9 .307 .358 .471 .830 *3/D97584 NYY
42 Roger Maris 39.8 5846 1957 1968 22-33 1463 5101 826 1325 195 42 275 850 652 42 733 38 12 43 75 21 9 .260 .345 .476 .822 *98/7 CLE-TOT-KCA-NYY-STL
43 David Justice 39.7 6601 1989 2002 23-36 1610 5625 929 1571 280 24 305 1017 903 85 999 18 1 54 101 53 46 .279 .378 .500 .878 *9D7/38 ATL-CLE-TOT-NYY-OAK
44 Boog Powell 39.7 7810 1961 1977 19-35 2042 6681 889 1776 270 11 339 1187 1001 140 1226 29 27 72 164 20 21 .266 .361 .462 .822 *37/D9 BAL-CLE-LAD
45 Felipe Alou 39.4 7908 1958 1974 23-39 2082 7339 985 2101 359 49 206 852 423 67 706 57 33 56 135 107 67 .286 .328 .433 .761 9837/56 SFG-MLN-ATL-OAK-TOT-NYY-MIL
46 Sid Gordon 39.4 5811 1941 1955 23-37 1475 4992 735 1415 220 43 202 805 731 2 356 22 54 12 174 19 5 .283 .377 .466 .843 *759/384 NYG-BSN-MLN-PIT-TOT
47 Frank Howard 39.4 7353 1958 1973 21-36 1895 6488 864 1774 245 35 382 1119 782 135 1460 33 7 43 219 8 9 .273 .352 .499 .851 793 LAD-WSA-TOT-DET
48 Davey Lopes 39.3 7340 1972 1987 27-42 1812 6354 1023 1671 232 50 155 614 833 38 852 31 74 48 126 557 114 .263 .349 .388 .737 *4/8795D6 LAD-OAK-TOT-CHC-HOU
49 Carney Lansford 39.3 7905 1978 1992 21-35 1862 7158 1007 2074 332 40 151 874 553 45 719 64 53 77 166 224 104 .290 .343 .411 .753 *53/D64 CAL-BOS-OAK
50 Doug DeCinces 39.2 6534 1973 1987 22-36 1649 5809 778 1505 312 29 237 879 618 57 904 21 22 64 176 58 48 .259 .329 .445 .774 *5/4D637 BAL-CAL-TOT
Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 1/4/2011.

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Never, ever, would I have expected to see Chet Lemon so high on this list. (By the way, did you know that Lemon is now a sort of a youth baseball maven?)  It's interesting.  I've heard, in the past, some lobby that Dick Allen should be in Cooperstown.  But, I've never heard that about Lemon.  Could Chet be one of the best players ever that no one ever talks about anymore?  Well, that's open for debate, at the least.  So, what do you think?

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This entry was posted on Tuesday, January 4th, 2011 at 10:18 am and is filed under Season Finders. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

66 Responses to “Chet Lemon”

  1. Eriq Jaffe Says:
    January 4th, 2011 at 10:24 am

    I bet that Minnie Minoso is the only "relatively short career" guy who played in five decades. 😉

  2. John Says:
    January 4th, 2011 at 10:38 am

    I do think Chet Lemon is a somewhat underrated player-- some of his seasons in the late 70's/early 80's were legitimately excellent.

    That said, it looks to me like there's a fairly sharp cutoff on that list around 50 WAR. Above the 50 point, you have Piazza-- who I assume will reach the Hall when eligible-- and a bunch of guys like McGwire, Shoeless Joe, Minoso, and Allen who would have terrific Hall arguments, with only outside circumstances standing in their way. (Steroids, gambling, color line, controversy respectively.) Only Cash looks like a pretender above that point.

    But Lemon is slightly under 50, and who else is down there with ANY kind of a Hall argument? Um... maybe Fred Lynn if not for injuries. Then you have to go all the way down the list to Oliva and Knoblauch to find other players worthy of serious consideration.

    In sum, then, Lemon was terrific. But he's not any kind of a Hall of Famer, not even a debatable one. He just happens to stand right at the junction where "most of these guys could be Hall of Famers" departs from "most of these guys were very good players."

  3. Bill@TPA Says:
    January 4th, 2011 at 10:40 am

    Lemon was certainly better than history gives him credit for, but I think the standout on that list ought to be Gene Tenace. There are lots of outfielders (short-career or not) who have put up around a 50 WAR, but many, many fewer catchers.

  4. Dan Says:
    January 4th, 2011 at 10:54 am

    If I may ask, what was the criteria to determine a "relatively short career"? I mean, Lemon played 16 years. Was it based on PA, perhaps?

  5. Uncle Mike Says:
    January 4th, 2011 at 11:07 am

    Lemon was a pretty good player. The '77 White Sox were one pitcher short of winning the AL West, and he helped the '84 Tigers win the Series. And while Tiger Stadium was a good park for boosting hitting stats, the old Comiskey Park most certainly was not. Frank Thomas would not have hit 500 home runs had he played his home games at old Comiskey. What could the South Side Hit Men have done at new Comiskey/U.S. Cellular Field?

    Lynn and Colavito would be in the Hall if not for injuries. Minoso would be in if he didn't have to wait so long to get into the majors, or if they gave him credit for his Negro League service the way they did to Monte Irvin. McGwire would be in if not for steroids. Then again, if not for steroids, he might have been finished far too soon, and ended up on this list anyway. Jackson, of course, has been punished long enough. Piazza isn't eligible yet, and will get in unless he gets outed for steroids.

    Allen... He got screwed by the Phillies and the Philly media, but if more of life is how we react to what happens, then he was his own worst enemy. He actually managed to rehabilitate himself, and then hurt himself a second time. As great a player as he was, he just doesn't have the career stats to get in.

    A year ago, I would have been surprised to see Fregosi there. But last year, I did an "all-time regional teams" list for 30 teams on my blog, and Fregosi qualified for my Giants team (San Mateo, CA), and I was surprised by some of the stats he put up. I only remembered him as a manager; as a player, I only knew that he was the guy the Mets wanted and for whom they sent away Nolan Ryan (and Lee Stanton, who, lest we forget, was also once an All-Star).

    I was surprised to see Roy White there, too. It's easy to forget, when we think of Murcer, Munson, Nettles and eventually Reggie Jackson as big Yankee bats in the Seventies, but he could hit.

  6. mick Says:
    January 4th, 2011 at 11:11 am

    Just guessing, but at a glance it looks like "fewer than 8000 career at-bats." Although McGwire, when you include BB and HBP, surpasses *9000* plate appearances. Not really a short-timer! By the same reasoning, Chet surpasses 9000 PA, too.

  7. Johnny Twisto Says:
    January 4th, 2011 at 11:25 am

    Tenace only played a little over half his games at catcher, and in a few of his prime seasons was primarily a 1Bman.

  8. Imbroglio21 Says:
    January 4th, 2011 at 11:44 am

    That lobbying campaign for Chet Lemon in Cooperstown might get some steam after all. You guys knew this ?

    Lemon 49.9 WAR in 7872 PA.
    Jim Rice (Hall of Famer) 41.5 WAR in 9058 PA.

  9. Detroit Michael Says:
    January 4th, 2011 at 12:08 pm

    Someone else on the Internet noted the Rice vs Lemon comparison recently, although the article uses the Fangraphs version of WAR in some places:
    http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/changeup/002657-print.html

  10. fourfriends1679 Says:
    January 4th, 2011 at 12:46 pm

    I've got Lemon on both my all-time tigers and my all-time white sox teams. So I could see him being on the list, but I would not have guessed seventh.

  11. Artie Z Says:
    January 4th, 2011 at 1:14 pm

    If you look at by a rate instead of the cumulative amount you get a different picture. Lemon is 23rd on the list if you look at as WAR/650 PA (his is at 4.12) and he is 27th in WAR/162 G (his is at 4.07). Using the rate stats we get the first 4 players (McGwire, Shoeless, Allen, and Piazza) in the top 6 players (regardless of whether it is games or PA) and they are joined by Dykstra and Tenace rounding out the top 6.

    I think looking at it both as total WAR and by the rate helps, since in some cases you are comparing a player with 1988 G and 7872 PA (Lemon) with one who has 1278 G and 5282 PA (Dykstra). Not that I'm advocating one approach over the other, but that the "best" players (Shoeless, McGwire, Allen, Piazza) tend to come out on top using both approaches. Well, those 4 guys and Gene Tenace.

    @4 and 6 - the criteria is between 5000-8000 PAs for this list.

  12. ari Says:
    January 4th, 2011 at 1:15 pm

    I guess Chet has been into youth baseball for a pretty long time now. I remember him signing autographs at my little league all-star game about 15 years ago in michigan. I always wondered what he was doing there.

  13. John from Minneapolis Says:
    January 4th, 2011 at 1:48 pm

    But...but...but Lemon doesn't *feel* like a Hall of Famer!

  14. Phil Haberkorn in Indiana Says:
    January 4th, 2011 at 2:10 pm

    How did you define "relatively short career?"....and still link it to "not in the Hall of Fame?" ...To me, it's defined by years played, but not much more than the ten year HOF minimum, regardless of how many PA they had.
    This list includes guys who played 16 and 17 years, like Fred Lynn and Jim Fregosi. Where's Ron Santo, whose career was even "shorter" than Lynn's and Fregosi's? Or do Lenny Dykstra and Darrell Porter actually have higher WAR's than Ron Santo, which would explain why he didn't make your Top 50? Funny, I don't hear anybody lobbying for Dykstra and Porter like they do for Ron Santo, for the HOF.....
    To me, a "relatively short" career would be like Ralph Kiner, the HOF minimum 10 years, or Sandy Koufax, 12 years, and they both made the HOF. Now there's something to compare these other guys with...

  15. Tmckelv Says:
    January 4th, 2011 at 2:21 pm

    Am I the only one that thought Chet was dead after reading "Chet Lemon" as the title of this thread?

    BTW I love Chet. Late 1970's to Mid 1980's is right in the middle of my earliest baseball watching and card collecting years. Winner of a topps all-rookie team cup on his 1977 card.

  16. Tmckelv Says:
    January 4th, 2011 at 2:35 pm

    Augie Galan (#17 on list) is the best player I had never heard of until today (1000 R, 100 HR, 122 OPS+). Not sure how he slid by all these years. Always something great (for me) comes out of these lists.

  17. John Q Says:
    January 4th, 2011 at 2:59 pm

    Catchers really shouldn't be on this list. Piazza for example ranks 10th all time in plate appearances by a catcher with at least 50% playing time at C.

    Lemon fits the classic pattern of an underrated player in that he was very good 6-7 offensive categories yet only great in a relatively minor offensive category, HBP. One of the shocking things looking up Lemon's career was that he led the league in HBP four times and finished in the top ten 13 times and is 21st all time in HBP, Ouch.

    Lemon was a CF and Center Fielders are usually very underrated players because their offensive numbers are compared to corner outfielders. Lemon was also a very good/great defensive player and its kind of shocking that he never won a Gold Glove. He probably should have won around 5-7 GG in his career and he's one of the best fielders to have never won a GG.

    Lemon had a career .273/.355/.447, 120 Ops+ playing GG glove caliber defense at an important defensive position.

    Lemmon, Whitaker, Trammell, and Parrish were all underrated up the middle Tiger players who have an odd ironic & symbiotic relationship with Jack Morris. Jack Morris HOF case and him being overrated is due in large part that he had those four players playing C, 2b, SS, & CF. Without those four players Morris would have been one and done and off the HOF ballot.

    Out of that list I would say that only McGwire, Piazza, Allen and Minoso are HOF. Allen will probably get in during next years Veteran's committee. Minosa is really an odd omission when you factor in his Negro league career. You can make a strong case for Tenace because he's that odd hybrid 60% Catcher 40% 1B type player. You can make a strong case for Freehan & Munson as well.

    Lemon is part of a big group of just-miss type players. Lemon also highlights what a horrible selection Jim Rice was.

  18. John Q Says:
    January 4th, 2011 at 3:20 pm

    Tmckelv,

    Galen great skill was On-Base percentage, Walks, and Runs Scored, so that might have something to do with his lack of notoriety. He had some good seasons for the 30's Cubs and some great seasons for the WW2 Dodgers. You can make a case that he was one of the best National League players during WW2.

    He never played with those "Boys of Summer" Dodgers otherwise he probably would have been better known. And his career might have been marginalized at the time because his success came during the War.

  19. Flanagan Says:
    January 4th, 2011 at 3:23 pm

    I had absolutely no clue. I always thought of Chet Lemon as Ray Lankford minus the speed. Turns out he's Ray Lankford minus the speed but still better than Ray Lankford.

  20. John Autin Says:
    January 4th, 2011 at 3:23 pm

    One little oddity about Chet Lemon:
    When he came over to the Tigers for the '82 season, they moved him from CF to RF, with Kirk Gibson and the rookie Glenn Wilson splitting the bulk of the CF starts. Although I was following the Tigers closely at that time, I don't recall why they did that. Lemon had earned a reputation as a very good CF, though his arm was pretty erratic. Tiger Stadium had a famously deep CF, and Glenn Wilson had a strong arm, so maybe Sparky thought that was the best deployment of his talent. (As to why Gibson started 64 games in CF ... well, he was supposed to be the next Mickey Mantle, right?)

    In '83, Lemon moved back to CF, where he remained through 1987.

    I always liked Lemon as a player, though he didn't quite justify my initial elation over the trade in which we got him for Steve Kemp even-up. I thought Lemon had a chance to become a superstar, but he was a different sort of hitter for Detroit than he had been in Chicago, hitting for more power but much less average. His last 4 years in the Windy City, Chet had a combined 140 OPS+ built on a .304 BA and .386 OBP, while averaging 17 HRs per 162 G. In his first 7 full years with Detroit, he had a steady 121 OPS+ (with a high of 134), batting .267 (with a high of .287) with a .351 BA and 23 HRs per 162 G.

    A couple of other points on Lemon's game:
    -- For his decent speed, he was one of the worst baserunners (and base-stealers) I've ever seen. He just had terrible judgment, and would get thrown out many times a year trying to take an extra base at the wrong time, or after overrunning a base. And he had a 43% success rate on SB attempts -- 58 SB, 74 CS. After going 13-7 as a rookie, he went just 44-69 the rest of his career.
    -- With Detroit, his arm was really erratic. He was equally capable of heaving one into the stands behind home plate or throwing a three-hopper to the cutoff man; you just never knew.

    Still, he had a fine career, and we Tigers fans were happy to have him for such a long time.

  21. Detroit Michael Says:
    January 4th, 2011 at 4:02 pm

    I remember Lemon being criticized for playing too deep as the Tigers' centerfielder, although that's mostly during the last portion of his Tiger years.

  22. John Q Says:
    January 4th, 2011 at 4:19 pm

    John Austin,

    Those are some good points you brought up about Lemon. I never knew he started playing RF which is odd. Its odd that he would get the reputation as having a weak throwing arm because he finished in the top 4 for CF assists four times before the '82 season. He finished three times in the top five for CF putouts prior to '82 so its odd Sparky would move him to right.

    I remember when the trade of Kemp-Lemon happened because it was my birthday in '81. At the time it Kemp-Lemon were young minor stars in the AL so it seemed like a pretty fair trade. Kemp was seen as the better hitter but played a pretty poor left field and Lemon was seen as the more well rounded player.

    In retrospect why the heck did the White Sox trade Lemon for only one year of Kemp? It seems like a terrible trade for the ChiSox. Kemp would be a free agent at the end of the 1982 season and go to the Yankees and bomb and disappear.

    Kemp gave the Chi Sox one good season but Lemon gave the Tigers 2-3 very good seasons and good overall play until 1990.

  23. sansho1 Says:
    January 4th, 2011 at 4:25 pm

    You would think that the same instincts/skills required to be an excellent CF would translate to the basepaths. What an odd combination.

  24. AlvaroEspinoza Says:
    January 4th, 2011 at 4:54 pm

    Check Lemon sucked. Except in the original Nintendo RBI Baseball.

  25. dukeofflatbush Says:
    January 4th, 2011 at 6:01 pm

    @ John A.

    For players with at least 50 SBs, Lemon has the 4th worst SB%.
    In 1983 he became one of only 12 players with at lest 7 CSs and zero SBs.

  26. Johnny Twisto Says:
    January 4th, 2011 at 6:11 pm

    You would think that the same instincts/skills required to be an excellent CF would translate to the basepaths. What an odd combination.

    It seems like it would, yet there are many examples that show it is not the case. Derek Jeter was excellent baserunner most of his career, but not a good SS. Tim Raines was at least an excellent base stealer, but I don't think he was that highly regarded in LF. Andruw Jones was a superb CF but never stole too many bases (though as far as I know he was a competent baserunner).

  27. dukeofflatbush Says:
    January 4th, 2011 at 6:52 pm

    I never knew, but Lemon has the most single season putouts as a CF with 509 in 1977.

  28. Mike Gaber Says:
    January 4th, 2011 at 7:12 pm

    @18 John Q & @16 Tmckelv

    Yes Augie Galan:
    http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/galanau01.shtml

    I grew up watching Augie Galan playing for the Cubs and listening to the radio and Wrigley Field PA announcer pronounce his name:

    Augie "Gah-Lan"

    Augie was one of the fan favorites.
    Then he was traded to the Dodgers
    In later years I heard re-broadcasts by the Dodger announcer (probably Red Barber) and he pronounced his last name as:

    Augie "Gay-Lin"

    So which is it?? Gah-Lan or Gay-Lin)??

    Over at the Baseball Think Factory (baseball article aggregator), they have been arguing about the Pronouncing of Hall of Famer Napoleon Lajoie's last name
    http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/lajoina01.shtml

    Sometimes I wish our favorite baseball web site (BB-Ref.com), would have a phonetic pronunciation of a players name on his main page to settle these arguments.

  29. Phil Haberkorn in Indiana Says:
    January 4th, 2011 at 7:43 pm

    Re: AUGIE GALAN and other oldtimers you're not sure how to pronounce.
    Interesting,... how we're not sure about that because we weren't around back then to HEAR the games on radio when they were played,
    BUT..... we can sit here and pass judgment over whether or not this guy or that guy really belongs in the HOF, based only on stats because we weren't around back then to SEE them play the game. . . .

  30. WarrenJ Says:
    January 4th, 2011 at 7:58 pm

    You could make a pretty good lineup with the names on that list. I knew the Rock would be on there. Injuries did him no favors, and neither did the fact that arguably his best season was in an expansion year.

  31. John Q Says:
    January 4th, 2011 at 8:00 pm

    Mike Gaber,

    Wow you're old enough to remember baseball in the 30's? Respect.

    The region my mother came from in France has a lot of Galan or Galin families and they all pronounce their names GAH-LAN.

    Gahlan was traded to Cincinnati before the '47 season. Did Robinson's arrival in have anything to do with the trade?

  32. Johnny Twisto Says:
    January 4th, 2011 at 8:14 pm

    I never knew, but Lemon has the most single season putouts as a CF with 509 in 1977.

    Not quite. B-R's defensive leader boards are confusing and could do with some more clarification. The CF leader board only exists since the '50s, when they have play-by-play accounts and can break down who tallied which stats at which OF position. But Taylor Douthit had 547 PO in 1928, as seen on the "OF" leader board: http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/PO_of_season.shtml

  33. Tim Lee Says:
    January 4th, 2011 at 8:42 pm

    Lemon made your list of all-time Tigers? I hope he's coming off the bench because Crawford, Cobb, and Kaline are going to be in the starting lineup.

  34. Chuck Says:
    January 4th, 2011 at 8:51 pm

    Tmekelv @ # 15.

    LOL..no, I thought the same thing.

    Lemon has a son, Marcus, who is an infielder in the Rangers' organization.

    http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=2B&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=502017

  35. Dvd Avins Says:
    January 4th, 2011 at 9:01 pm

    @33, I think Harry Heilmann would have something to say about that, unless his natural position (DH) is being used.

  36. Random Sports Guy Says:
    January 4th, 2011 at 9:12 pm

    Dude, the freakin' Tigers have had a dumb amount of good/great players since their inception in 1901. I think they could be baseball's biggest underachievers w/ only 10 pennants and 4 championships under their belt. Look at some of the names that have gone through this franchise. It's hard to believe that they couldn't put it together more often than just the 10 times they did. Then I remember I'm Yankee fan. From 1921 - 1964 they were in the WS more often than not. Easily the most dominant era by any franchise in any sports league in North America.

  37. rico petrocelli Says:
    January 4th, 2011 at 9:32 pm

    Oddly, four of the longest-playing guys to ever come out of Mississippi all played at the exact same time. . Chet Lemon (Jackson) , Dave Parker (Grenada, Frank White (Greenville) and Larry Herndon (Sunflower) all came up within 75 miles of each other and were in the MLB forlong careers from 1975 – 1990 or so. No other players come close for Mississippi Wonder if they played against each other in High School? Wonder what they were putting in the water back then?

  38. John Autin Says:
    January 4th, 2011 at 10:04 pm

    Johnny Twisto @32 re: Chet Lemon's putouts "record":
    I don't know officially, but I do recall hearing his '77 season called a CF putouts record at the time. A couple of my best friends were big ChiSox fans, and we played a ton of S-O-M, so they were always touting the Chetster's CF skills.

    John Q @ 22 re: Lemon's arm:
    I think he was actually a good candidate for racking up OF assists. His arm wasn't actually weak, like Johnny Damon's, it was just scattershot -- wild enough to embolden some runners to try, but strong enough to nail some of them when the throw went true.
    P.S. It's not so unusual for an OF with a weak arm to rack up the assists. When everybody tries to take the extra base on you, it gives you so many opportunities that you throw out quite a few even though you're still costing your team runs overall.

  39. John Autin Says:
    January 4th, 2011 at 10:20 pm

    Sansho1 @23 re: CFs and baserunning:
    I can see expecting CFs to be solid baserunners in general, just because of speed. But base-stealing is another kettle of fish entirely. Some fast guys are/were terrible base-stealers (Bernie Williams is a recent example), and some slow guys who are/were good base-stealers (e.g., Jeff Bagwell). Stealing is as much about reading the pitcher -- and trusting your read -- as it is about pure speed. Poor Bernie never could get the hang of it, and after a while he just got gun-shy; he would often break back to the bag while the pitcher delivered to home.

  40. Steve Lombardi Says:
    January 4th, 2011 at 10:33 pm

    Just want to say, you guys rock!
    Only in a group of diehard baseball fans can someone say the words "Chet Lemon" and then get 39 comments in less than 12 hours.

    It's an honor to play in this sandbox with y'all. Really, it's one of the most cool parts of my day!

    Gosh, I love baseball for making stuff like this happen.

  41. John Autin Says:
    January 4th, 2011 at 10:46 pm

    John Q re: Kemp going free agent after 1 year with ChiSox:

    I don't recall Lemon's contract situation at the time, but he should have qualified for free agency before Kemp, since he came up more than a year earlier. Kemp was a fan favorite in Detroit, but the Tigers didn't pay top dollar at the time, plus Sparky was given a lot of say in personnel and, whatever the reason, he just didn't cotton to some of the Tigers who were already stars when he signed on, such as Kemp, Rusty Staub, Jason Thompson and Ron Leflore. Those trades were unpopular at the time, but none of those guys did as much after leaving Detroit as most expected them to.

    B-R lists Kemp making $600K in 1981 after winning in arbitration; the Tigers' offer of $360K looks pretty chintzy for a 4-year veteran coming off 2 very good offensive years. His '82 salary is missing. The Yanks signed him for 5 years and about $5.5 million -- pretty big money at the time for a defensively limited LF who also wasn't a big slugger.

    Lemon's salaries before '85 are missing, but in his last 6 years with Detroit (1985-90), he made a modest $4.5 million. Here's a passage of an interview with Chet Lemon, circa 1999, which touches on the contract situation (but alas, no figures are mentioned):

    "In spring training 1981 I had verbally agreed to a five year contract [with Chicago] that would have made me the highest paid player on the team. ... For some reason I hadn’t gotten around to actually signing the document though. A few weeks later they signed Carlton Fisk and his numbers came out. When I saw those I told my agent ‘hmmmm maybe we need to renegotiate.’ Everything that I did in five years, I did in Chicago and now I wasn’t going to be the highest paid player anymore. I know it was childish on my part but that’s the way I felt at the time.

    "It created some problems. After a period of time I said that I’d just play my next year out (1982) and then see what happens in that off season. I guess the Sox thought that I was automatically going to go the free agent route and that wasn’t necessarily the case. However I did know that other clubs were interested, I knew that Earl Weaver of the Orioles wanted me badly and that the Sox were close to trading me to them at one time.

    "... Luzinski, whom I respected, ... came out and said something like ‘if he’s not going to sign then we need to get somebody for him.’ After the trade I did play out my option but Detroit re-signed me to a ten year deal which gave me security. I had some no trade clauses in it so I had some control if I was going to be uprooted again."

    http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=11&id=2719

  42. Darrel Says:
    January 4th, 2011 at 10:51 pm

    I always believed Minoso should be in the Hall with a combination of his Negro League and Major League experience. One of many African-Americans who have been underrated because of their lack of major league time.

  43. John Autin Says:
    January 4th, 2011 at 10:52 pm

    I just had a longish post about Kemp's & Lemon's contracts vanish into the ether & I don't have the heart to tap it out again, but I did want to post this passage from an interview with Lemon circa 1999, touching on what led up to his being traded from the White Sox:

    "In spring training 1981 I had verbally agreed to a five year contract that would have made me the highest paid player on the team. ... For some reason I hadn’t gotten around to actually signing the document though. A few weeks later they signed Carlton Fisk and his numbers came out. When I saw those I told my agent ‘hmmmm maybe we need to renegotiate.’ Everything that I did in five years, I did in Chicago and now I wasn’t going to be the highest paid player anymore. I know it was childish on my part but that’s the way I felt at the time."

    "It created some problems. After a period of time I said that I’d just play my next year out (1982) and then see what happens in that off season. I guess the Sox thought that I was automatically going to go the free agent route and that wasn’t necessarily the case. However I did know that other clubs were interested, I knew that Earl Weaver of the Orioles wanted me badly and that the Sox were close to trading me to them at one time."

    "It was weird how some things happened. I mean 'Bull' Luzinski, whom I respected, and thought did a great job for us by supplying power, came out and said something like ‘if he’s not going to sign then we need to get somebody for him.’ After the trade I did play out my option but Detroit re-signed me to a ten year deal which gave me security. I had some no trade clauses in it so I had some control if I was going to be uprooted again."

    http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=11&id=2719

  44. John Autin Says:
    January 4th, 2011 at 11:00 pm

    Tmckelv @15: "Am I the only one that thought Chet was dead after reading "Chet Lemon" as the title of this thread?"

    Until your post, I had forgotten that Lemon's career ended abruptly in spring '91 when he was diagnosed with a rare and often fatal illness, and for a while he was in real danger. Chet talks about that and many other things in this interview, circa 1999:

    http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=11&id=2719

  45. mccombe35 Says:
    January 4th, 2011 at 11:00 pm

    #5

    Frank Thomas would not have hit 500 home runs had he played his home games at old Comiskey.

    ==========

    Wrong. Frank's prime was at New Comiskey. which was one of the best pitchers parks in the league. in the late 90's/early 2000's it became a hitters park when they moved the fences in & chopped off the top 8 rows of the upper deck & then the wind really played a factor

  46. mccombe35 Says:
    January 4th, 2011 at 11:03 pm

    Minoso, Shoeless Joe, Chet Lemon, Dick Allen.....

    I see a team theme here.............

  47. Hartvig Says:
    January 4th, 2011 at 11:13 pm

    Flanagan @ 19 I saw Lemon play many times & while he didn't have the jaw dropping speed of the 2 guys who followed him in centerfield for Detroit (Gary Pettis & Milt Cuyler) he was plenty fast. His base running skills left much to be desired however, and not just as a base stealer.

    Even though I'm a Tigers fan, I do have to think that his ranking so high in WAR does bring up some serious issues with its validity in this case. I compared him to Dom DiMaggio. While DiMaggio lost 3 prime years to WWII even if you credit him with 15 WAR for those seasons (the most he had in any 1 year was 4.6) he still comes up short of Lemon and that doesn't seem right. Offensively, DiMaggio was a better base stealer/runner at a time when people didn't steal bases and walked more at a time when a lot more people were walking. Lemon had a bit more power at a time when people were hitting a few more home runs. Lemon's career started a couple of years earlier than DiMaggio's but his first couple of seasons were pretty dismal so if you account for the 3 war years they have careers of pretty equal length. That leaves defense.

    Some people who saw DiMaggio play said he was better than his brother Joe. Bill James' Win Shares says he was at least as good a center fielder as his brother. I never saw him play but I've never read anything about him that didn't remark about how good a defensive player he was. A good case can be made that he was the best defensive outfielder of his era (or at least until Mays came along).

    I saw Chet Lemon play. He was a very good defensive player but not as good as Pettis or Dwayne Murphy or Kirby Puckett or Devon White or Ken Griffey, Jr who came along right after. I would be amazed if anyone ever said when he was playing that he was the best defensive outfielder of his day.

    This is one case where WAR is just flat out wrong.

  48. Johnny Twisto Says:
    January 4th, 2011 at 11:50 pm

    I don't know officially, but I do recall hearing his '77 season called a CF putouts record at the time. A couple of my best friends were big ChiSox fans, and we played a ton of S-O-M, so they were always touting the Chetster's CF skills.

    That's a bit before my time. I wonder if Douthit's season had been missed somehow. Anyone have the original MacMillan (or a '70s update) handy to check the all-time PO leaders in there? Still, Richie Ashburn had put up several 500-PO seasons in more recent memory. Maybe Lemon was being cited as the AL record holder, which it appears he is. 500 PO is a ton. In recent years only Andruw Jones and Mike Cameron have come close. Dwayne Murphy was the last guy to reach 500, a few years after Lemon.

    '84 is the first season I really followed baseball on a day-by-day basis. I can remember thinking I would choose Rice-Lemon-Winfield as my AL All-Star outfield. Shortly thereafter, I saw the Sporting News agreed with me, and the young me was quite proud to feel like I knew something. (As it turns out, the actual starting OF had an aging, undeserving Reggie Jackson in place of Rice, who made it as a reserve. Who the most deserving starters were, I'll leave to someone else to decide.)

  49. Johnny Twisto Says:
    January 5th, 2011 at 12:35 am

    Hartvig, interesting comparison. I tried looking a little deeper to see if WAR is "wrong." There are three major differences between them. One is not that arguable, two of them are.

    Lemon was a better batter. His career OPS+ is 120 to Dom's 110. He had 7 straight seasons with an OPS+ at least as high as Dom's career best. Dom was a little more OBP-heavy. If we check wRC+, which weights the offensive events more correctly, it's closer but still in Lemon's favor, 124 to 120. So Lemon is credited as 190 runs created better than average to Dom's 110. Some of that difference is playing time but not most of it. We can compare this directly to Pete Palmer's batting runs for another look, and there Lemon leads 209 to 99. If you stick with WAR's more favorable finding and adjust for playing time, Lemon is still almost 60 runs, or almost 6 wins, ahead of Dom.

    The defense can certainly be argued. Total Zone is a rough measurement, even more so when we get back to the '40s before the play-by-play accounts are available. TZ does see Dom as a good CF, not an elite one. Contemporary, anecdotal opinion should definitely be taken into account. Maybe Dom was really worth 10-15 runs above average during his prime, as opposed to the 5-10 he has. What's reasonable? Suppose you decide he's worth 15 runs above average per full season, every year of his career. That makes him among the best defensive CF ever (albeit in a short career) and gives him perhaps another 100 runs saved, or about 10 wins. And maybe TZ overrates Lemon a bit; maybe instead of 93 runs better than average for his career he should be 63. So there, you could get a 13 win swing between the two. Defense can be that important and that hard to accurately measure. If you want to come up with a consistent way to translate contemporary, subjective opinion on defense into a runs-saved measure, that would be fascinating and IMO add something useful to the collective knowledge. Of course, one must determine how to apply it to everyone and it has to balance....if you find 3 plaudits worth 10 runs above average, someone else has to be 10 runs below average thanks to 4 jeers.

    Finally, there is a big difference in the runs due to replacement level, and this one is a little hard to understand. This is mostly an account of playing time -- how much more is an average player worth than a replacement player, given the playing time this player had. Now there is also, I believe, a league strength factor in here. The AL is generally considered to have been inferior to the NL for most of the '50s through the '70s, mostly due to lagging on integration. But Dom played much of his career before that. In 1946, prior to integration, he played 142 games, 610 PA, and gets credited 15 runs for replacement level. In 1980 Lemon played 147 games, 604 PA, and gets credited 19 runs. That difference adds up over time. Why does it exist? I don't know. Lemon had about 20% more PA than DiMaggio but about 60% more runs over replacement level, or about 10 WAR. I don't think the 1980 AL was relatively stronger than the 1946 AL. If someone can explain this gap, it would be appreciated.

  50. mick Says:
    January 5th, 2011 at 11:00 am

    > below average thanks to 4 jeers.

    Oh boy, I misread that and thought you were going for a cheap laugh with a "4 jeters" typo ...

  51. Lawrence Azrin Says:
    January 5th, 2011 at 1:05 pm

    #44/ Hartvig Says: "Flanagan @ 19, Even though I'm a Tigers fan, I do have to think that his ranking so high in WAR does bring up some serious issues with its validity in this case. I compared him to Dom DiMaggio... This is one case where WAR is just flat out wrong.

    Hartig ,"flat out wrong" sounds way way too critical; I don't think that it's obvious that Dom Dimaggio had a clearly better career than Chet Lemon; it's not like WAR is stating that Lemon is better than, say, Duke Snider...

    I took Dimaggio's WAR and added wartime credit, averaging out the two years both before and after the war, for games played and also for WAR:
    Dom Dimaggio/ ACTUAL:
    1399 games/ 31.9 WAR
    (now, add 144 games X 3, and 3.7 WAR X 3):

    Dom Dimaggio/ with WARTIME CREDIT:
    about 1830 games/ about 43 WAR

    compare this to Chet Lemon:
    1988 games/ 47.9 WAR

    Dom simply had a shorter career than Chet, even with reasonable wartime credit; give Dom another full season, and their career WAR are almost equal. I don't see this as any grave injustice in the way that WAR evaluates Chet Lemom versus Dom Dimaggio.

    I understand that Dom "feels" like a better player than Chet, having a great defensive reputation, scoring 100+ runs and making the All-Star team frequently, and playing for outstanding Red Sox teams, but their total value isn't that much different.

    I don't believe that every single player-to-player copmparison of WAR has to hold up, for WAR to be valid:
    I do not believe Al Kaline is better than George Brett.
    I do not believe Frankie Frisch is better than Johnny Bench.
    I do not believe Reggie Smith is better than Yogi Berra.

    This is simply not a reasonable standard for any evaluation system.

  52. John Autin Says:
    January 5th, 2011 at 1:39 pm

    Chuck @34 -- Looks like Marcus Lemon is a chip off the ol' block in at least one respect: 49 SB, 35 CS in the minors. He's also reached double-digits in HBP a couple of times, which was one of his dad's specialties.

    Random Sports Guy @36 -- "From 1921 - 1964 [the Yankees] were in the WS more often than not."

    "More often than not" barely scratches the surface of the Yanks' dominance. They won 29 of those 44 AL pennants -- that's a .659 W% ... at winning the pennant! -- and won 20 of their 29 World Series.

    If you trim the span to 1923-63, they won the championship 20 out of 41 years.

    The rest of baseball was fighting over scraps.

  53. John Autin Says:
    January 5th, 2011 at 3:11 pm

    More Lemon zest:
    He began his career as a 3B, and had only 16 OF games (all but 1 coming in the minors) before switching to CF in 1976.

    “Chet wasn’t a very good outfielder at first because he came up as an infielder and made the change but Chet worked very hard. He hustled, he learned. He had trouble running the bases at first despite the fact that he was fast, but he picked up.” — Jimmy Piersall
    http://www.thebaseballpage.com/players/lemonch01.php

    (That site is also one of many that say Lemon set a MLB record in 1977, though the specific record is variously described as either putouts or chances; also, it actually does seem to have been only an AL record, not approaching Douthit's MLB record of 547 in 1928.)

  54. Phil Haberkorn in Indiana Says:
    January 5th, 2011 at 3:24 pm

    RE: POST 28 TO MIKE GABER: as to the correct pronunciation for Augie Galan, I took the question to the highest possible level of authority on the subject, my Dad, who went to Cubs games at Wrigley Field and HEARD THE IMMORTAL PAT PIPER on the PA system announce the starting lineup including:
    "SEVEN......ga-LANN......LEFT FIELD..."
    Pat Piper trumps anything you heard on the radio.
    >

  55. Steve Says:
    January 5th, 2011 at 5:21 pm

    Good comments, guys. You have done your homework and I am proud to post with you. Some solid evidence for many of these players shown. If not for injuries, Oliva, Lynn and Garciaparra, are in. Having seen Minnie Minoso play, I cannot understand why the veterans's committee has not put him or Gil Hodges in, without whom Brooklynn would not have been in the series so often during late 40s-50s.

    With the color line issue, if Monte Irvin gets in, why not Minoso and Don Newcombe? I can be neutral here for I was a Milwaukee Braves' fan and saw my team frequently beaten out by the Dodgers. I also wonder what sort of a career Strawberry would have put together without has cocaine use, for he looked like the "natural" for sure.

    As far as the steroid crowd goes, NONE belong EVER: clemons, knoblach, Arod, manny being manny, bonds, mcgwire, sosa, palmeiro, dykstra, incaviglia, brady anderson, etc. If Shoeless Joe and Pete Rose don't get in, NONE of the drug crowd, who, along with the players' union and an impotent commissioner, allowed baseball to be permanently marred, its dignity smeared.

    Someone above noted that mcgwire's number were impacted by peds and without peds, he wouldn't clearly have had the number's jump. It was noted that some of the sorts of injuries mcgwire had, are those steroids produces; joint and ligament damage. bonds to me, is the steroid poster boy. An ego freak, he saw himself as "the natural" but to me that was Griffey, Jr., and what numbers would he have put up but for injuries? bonds was never about team play and cammerderie. He never attended teams going to kids' hospital wards while a Pirate, nor did he ever do anything but what centered around his ego.

    bonds' bat speed and skills were slowing as it has for every man who ever played the sport and his ego reeling from the attention that sosa and mcgwire got during their homerun races of 1998-99. The mcgwire-Maris' family scene looked like a wonderful story but the steroid matter deminished that and the Maris' family knows their dad, Roger Maris, to be the true season home run record holder.

    That bonds' ego would have pushed him to start his drug use isn't surprising and, along with the fact that bonds was clearly the best player among the steroid bunch, it is no surprise that he stole and cheated to get the records held by Ruth, Henry Aaron, Ted Williams, etc., players whose names remind me why I should never include them in the same sentence as a liar and cheat like bonds.

    bonds was a great athlete and certainly worthy of the HOF up until he started HGH and steriods. A player totally void of any honesty and integrity, bonds does not now nor EVER belong with those others in the HOF. There are some pretty bad characters in the hall and ultra racist cap anson, is one of the worst.

    Major league baseball needs to clean up its image and peds' impact hurt as does the steinbrenner yankees' teams, and scott boras.NOT putting cheaters like the steroid boys in its hallowed grounds, should be the goal of every sports' writer. If it took 14 years to put Bert Blyleven, a great player and teammate in the Hall, then the integrity of those who receive this recognition should never be in question.

  56. Steve Says:
    January 5th, 2011 at 5:29 pm

    We saw how Judge Kennesaw Mountain Landis dealt with the 1919 black sox scandal, and those guys were found innocent in court! How would steroids abuse sit with that commissioner? That Shoeless Joe is still barred from the HOF reminds us that a strong commissioer can make such a decision that was made nearly 100 years ago.

  57. Mike Gaber Says:
    January 5th, 2011 at 5:59 pm

    @ 54 Phil Haberkorn:

    Agree with your dad 100% on Augie Galan pronunciation of Gah-Lan.

    The great Pat Piper was the Cubs PA announcer and had the great PA announcer voice.
    As I remember he was about 96 in 1945 and still doing the PA.
    Since the Cubs only played day games Pat worked as a waiter in a downtown Chicago restaurant at night.

    I tried to look him up on Wikipedia, but amazingly I can't find him there.
    Mainly I can still hear his voice in my head when he would give the starting line up's.

    "Your attention!!!, Your attention Please!!!:
    Have your pencils and score cards ready for the following Lineups for today's game:
    For the visiting St. Louis Cardinals...... etc. etc."

    Mainly he paused long enough between sentence to allow for the Echo effect so you understood every word.

    They say back in the 1930's before they had a PA system he actually used a Megaphone out in the middle of the diamond before the games to announce the lineups.
    My earliest recollections only go back to 1939 when I was 6.

  58. Mike Gaber Says:
    January 5th, 2011 at 6:10 pm

    @ 43 John Autin

    "I just had a longish post about Kemp's & Lemon's contracts vanish into the ether & I don't have the heart to tap it out again, ..."

    John I've had the same thing happen on many occasions and yes it's so frustrating, especially if it was a long post.

    What I have done to combat this is to either put the post in an e-mail to myself before hand, and/or copy and paste to the clipboard just prior to hitting the "Submit Comment" button.

    Then if the post disappears "into the ether", I can get it back and post it again.
    Using the E-Mail method also allows me to put multiple Links in my Posts on a message board/blog such as this.

  59. Mickey Says:
    January 5th, 2011 at 8:04 pm

    What about short career players in the Hall of Fame, Dizzy Dean, Sandy Koufax, Kirby Puckett, are 6 good/great years enough versus 12 very good some great years like Bagwell?

  60. Johnny Twisto Says:
    January 5th, 2011 at 9:06 pm

    Bert Blyleven, a great player and teammate

    ...who walked out on his team in 1980.

    It seems "integrity" is in the eye of the beholder.

  61. JMontgomery Says:
    January 5th, 2011 at 9:29 pm

    I don't know that George Foster fits you're description as a short career. However, he was one of the most feared hitters in baseball over the last half of the 70's. He lead the NL in RBI for three consecutive years. When he won the MVP in 77, he was the only player to have a 50 HR season over a 30 year span. He put up Hall of Fame numbers for five seasons. I always thought he would have been elected if he'd had more longevity at that level of performance.

  62. David in Toledo Says:
    January 5th, 2011 at 9:41 pm

    Minnie Minoso is the only one I see who lost his age 21-24 seasons because he was a very dark Spanish-speaking black at the very beginning of integration when quotas prevailed. A look at his minor-league stats and at his 1951 ML rookie season shows what he could have done in the majors before 1951.

    He may have lost even more than that, because his birther supporters believe he may have been older in 1951 than the current judgment indicates. Either way, he lost key years to discrimination, and yet he played like a Clemente or a Kaline while he was in his abbreviated ML prime.

  63. Mike Felber Says:
    January 6th, 2011 at 12:58 am

    Again I petition to have the different versions of WAR addressed on a thread, where the logic behind the variations in each system is explained, & an argument may be made for 1 version as better. But as it stands now, while I respect the efforts of this site, I do not think we should site WAR as being a certain # absent specifying WHICH WAR, & better are listed. Or at least averaged, & it explained as averaged.

    Because WAR often varies greatly between versions! The same guy often is ruled ~ 1/3 more or less valuable over a career than another!! As they often conflict with interpretations of value done when WARP & Win Shares are used. Therefor, should we want to be scien-terrific, at least take specify which WAR is used, & take the other sinto account routinely.

    Otherwise we are effectively pretending the system is very precise & accurate, & it is implied that there is agreement on what WAR should be used, when it is one of a few versions, & undefended as correct. I have NO IDEA which WAR, if any, I should consistently privilege.

  64. TigerRay Says:
    January 7th, 2011 at 9:53 am

    McGwire blew his chance at Hall of Fame. One could say the same for Jackson, but there are still questions of his involvement with the Black Sox ring (who had a higher BA in that Series? who hit the only home run? where was the proof that he had collaborated?). I would also add, if Cheapskate Comiskey is in the Hall, why not Jackson? For that matter, why not Ed Cicotte?
    And, to Tmckelv, I too thought by the title that this was Chet Lemon's obituary. You're not alone.

  65. John Autin Says:
    January 7th, 2011 at 1:16 pm

    TigerRay @64: "there are still questions of [Shoeless Joe's] involvement with the Black Sox ring (who had a higher BA in that Series? who hit the only home run? where was the proof that he had collaborated?)"

    After looking at the individual events in game context, I am not convinced that Jackson's .375 BA, HR and 6 RBI provide any exonerating evidence. Consider:

    1. The flow of the Series: In a best-of-9, the White Sox lost 4 of the first 5 games, making the final outcome all but certain. In those first 5 games, Jackson had no RBIs. In the first game -- which, according to the dominant narrative of the scandal, was crucial in assuring the money men that the fix really was in -- Jackson went 0 for 4 with 3 groundouts, including his only time up with runners on base.

    Jackson's only "big game" in the Series was game 8, after the Sox had narrowed the deficit to 4 games to 3. But the game was a rout before Jackson even came to bat, as the Reds scored 4 in the top of the 1st. It was 5-0 in the 3rd when Jackson hit a solo HR. It was 10-1 when Jackson batted in the 8th and hit a 2-run double. It was 10-5 in the 9th when Jackson batted with 2 on and 2 out, and bounced out to second to end the Series.

    2. Chicago's batting order: Jackson hit cleanup in all 8 games, followed by Happy Felsch, Chick Gandil and Swede Risberg. If we assume just for the sake of argument that Jackson was playing to lose, he was "protected" in the order by three of the (reputed) ringleaders. Jackson could, in theory, get an occasional hit in order to mask his true intentions, knowing that the next 3 guys would all help insure the agreed-upon outcome. In the first 5 games, Felsch and Risberg combined for 3 hits in 27 AB, with no RBI.

    Gandil did get get 5 singles and 3 RBI in 18 AB in the first 5 games, including a GWRBI in game 3. But he also failed in a number of RBI situations: In games 2 and 4 combined, Gandil batted three times with a man on third and 1 out with a chance to break a scoreless tie, and didn't get any of those runners home.

    Normally, I would call it unfair to analyze a player's World Series performance in such detail. If a guy bats .375 with a .956 OPS, 6 RBI and 5 runs in any 8-game stretch, it would be petty to note that virtually all his hits were irrelevant to the game outcomes; we know that "clutch" ability is mostly a myth, and so it's just bad luck if none of his hits makes a difference in any game.

    But normally, we have no reason to doubt that the player is doing his best to win. In the case of Shoeless Joe and the 1919 WS, we have plenty of reason to question his intentions.

    I do not claim to know exactly what went on or who was involved. But I just read very interesting story from the New York Times in 1989, when "Field of Dreams" was playing in theaters and Shoeless Joe was getting an image rehab; here is a passage the piece by Ira Berkow:
    -------------------
    Jackson through the years maintained his innocence, until his death in 1951. But at 3 P.M. on Sept. 28, 1920, Jackson was called as a witness to the grand jury of Cook County investigating the scandal. The transcript was recorded in a signed confession, and then swiftly disappeared because, it is believed, of a cynical deal cut between the White Sox owner, Charles A. Comiskey, and the gambler Arnold Rothstein. The lack of hard evidence helped Jackson and his teammates to be found not guilty in court.

    Three years later, when Jackson sued Comiskey and baseball to be reinstated - Commissioner Landis had banned him despite the court's decision - the confession mysteriously resurfaced, and Jackson lost the suit.

    Recently, the confession reappeared in an exhibition about the scandal at the Chicago Historical Society. ... Following are excerpts:

    Q. (by assistant state's attorney Hartley L. Replogle): Did anybody pay you any money to help throw that Series in favor of Cincinnati?

    A. They did.

    Q. How much did they pay you?

    A. They promised me $20,000 and paid me 5.

    Q. (Did Mrs. Jackson) know that you got $5,000 for helping throw these games?

    A. She did . . . yes.

    Q. What did she say about it?

    A. She said she thought it was an awful thing to do.
    ---------------------
    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=950DEEDF143EF937A15755C0A96F948260

    The article has a much longer excerpt from the transcript of Jackson's testimony. He admits agreeing to throw the Series and to taking money, but he insists that he nevertheless played every game to win. That's just not credible to me; it seems to me a classic example of someone admitting to everything they can't plausibly deny, but lying -- perhaps even to himself -- about the "sins of the heart" that are inherently unproveable.

  66. Johnny Twisto Says:
    January 7th, 2011 at 3:20 pm

    Right, I've never studied it in depth, but I got the impression that Jackson was upset he hadn't been paid all the money he was promised. So maybe he changed his mind at some point about trying to throw the Series, and later claimed he was never trying to throw it.

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