Teams With 4 SP With 30+ GS & ERA+ Of 130+
Posted by Steve Lombardi on December 14, 2010
With the news that the Phillies are about to add Cliff Lee to their starting rotation in 2011, it made me wonder - has there ever been a team to have four starters in the same season where they each made at least 30 starts and posted an ERA+ of 130 or better that year?
It's happened just once. Here's the team to do it - and those who were one SP short of doing it:
| Rk | Year | Lg | Tm | #Matching | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | 1997 | NL | Atlanta Braves | 4 | Tom Glavine / Greg Maddux / Denny Neagle / John Smoltz |
| 2 | 2005 | NL | Houston Astros | 3 | Roger Clemens / Roy Oswalt / Andy Pettitte |
| 3 | 2003 | NL | Chicago Cubs | 3 | Mark Prior / Kerry Wood / Carlos Zambrano |
| 4 | 1996 | NL | Atlanta Braves | 3 | Tom Glavine / Greg Maddux / John Smoltz |
| 5 | 1956 | AL | Cleveland Indians | 3 | Bob Lemon / Herb Score / Early Wynn |
| 6 | 1954 | AL | Cleveland Indians | 3 | Mike Garcia / Bob Lemon / Early Wynn |
| 7 | 1925 | NL | Cincinnati Reds | 3 | Pete Donohue / Dolf Luque / Eppa Rixey |
| 8 | 1913 | AL | Chicago White Sox | 3 | Eddie Cicotte / Reb Russell / Jim Scott |
| 9 | 1909 | NL | Chicago Cubs | 3 | Mordecai Brown / Orval Overall / Ed Reulbach |
| 10 | 1906 | AL | Cleveland Naps | 3 | Otto Hess / Addie Joss / Bob Rhoads |
.
Maybe the 2011 Phillies will become the second team to ever do this? What do you think?
December 14th, 2010 at 10:10 am
I was surprised that the Orioles of the late Sixties and early Seventies never made these lists. With Palmer, Cuellar, and McNally {not to mention men like Dobson, Phoebus, bunker and Hardin having big years for them}, they were a real bear to beat.
December 14th, 2010 at 10:12 am
The four starters on the '97 Braves actually exceeded the parameters easily, with each making at least 33 starts and the lowest ERA+ being 138. What a staff.
December 14th, 2010 at 10:14 am
Not to mention that in addition to their brilliant top 4 starters, the '97 Braves had two more on the staff -- Paul Byrd and Kevin Millwood -- who would have lengthy careers as starters.
December 14th, 2010 at 10:22 am
And remember, Phillies fans, the '97 Braves didn't get to the WS. Of course, Eric Gregg had a little to do with that but you still have to win it on the field, not on paper.
December 14th, 2010 at 11:36 am
I wonder what you'd get if you changed it to 190 IP? the 1907 Cubs had:
Reulbach (192 IP, 148 ERA+)
Overall (268.1 IP, 149 ERA+)
Brown (233 IP, 179 ERA+)
Lundgren (207 IP, 213 ERA+)
Pfiester (195 IP, 216 ERA+).
December 14th, 2010 at 11:39 am
Fielding plays a part in ERA+ just like ERA so it can be a little tricky sometimes. That 1997 Braves had a great defense mainly because they had two GG Center Fielders (Kenny Lofton-Andruw Jones) playing in the same outfield. I think the more amazing part of that stat is that the '97 Braves had 4 pitchers make 30+ starts.
Those 80's Royals teams had some great starting pitching with Saberhagen, Gubiza, Leibrandt, and Danny Jackson. The Royals fielding for the most part was average.
The Phillies are going to have some big names on that 2011 staff but 3/5 are going to be 32 or over. Halladay will be 34, Osawalt will be 33 and Lee will be 32. Not to mention the entire starting line-up will be over 30 except for Dominic Brown.
December 14th, 2010 at 12:37 pm
Set the controls to 200 IP, and the Braves are joined by the 1909 A's:
HOFers Eddie Planck and Chief Bender, rookie and 1-year wonder Harry Krause, and veteran Cy Morgan. The A's won 95 games and had the league's best run differential, but finished 3.5 GB Detroit.
Harry Krause, age 20, led the AL with a 1.39 ERA and 172 ERA+. He was out of the majors within 3 years. He went back to the PCL, whence he came, and pitched until he was 40, amassing 300 wins and 249 losses in his minor-league career, mostly in the PCL.
Cy Morgan had been kicking around the majors for several years, only once reaching 200 IP, and that with a modest 100 ERA+. The A's got him early in the '09 season, and he was instantly transformed -- no doubt with a contribution from the $100,000 Infield. Morgan had a 1.65 ERA (145 ERA+) in 229 IP with Philly that year, and backed it up with a 1.55 / 153 in 291 IP in 1910. For all that, he was passed over by Mr. Mack in the 1910 WS -- but then, that Series was a 2-man show, as Jack Coombs and Chief Bender combined to start all 5 games. (Coombs capped his 31-9 regular season with 3 CG WS wins in a span of 6 days, and went 5 for 13 at bat.)
December 14th, 2010 at 12:59 pm
Frank - I had a similar thought, so I went to take a loook at the Orioles from 1966-1980. I found that they never even came close. in fact, during that time they never had more than 1 pitcher in a single season meet these criteria. McNally did it once ('68), Cuellar once ('69), Flanagan once ('79) and Palmer seven times between 1970 and 1978. They did have two pitchers who met this level in 1965 (Pappas and Barber).
December 14th, 2010 at 1:05 pm
Tangent:
Who would have dreamed that the PHILLIES would become the first team with two $20-million-a-year pitchers?
And who would have thought that the highest annual salary would go to a 32-year-old pitcher who, over the past 2 years, ranked 13th overall in pitchers' WAR and tie-11th in ERA+ (min. 300 IP) ? (Yeah, I know -- even I believe Lee is better than that. I'm just citing the numbers....)
December 14th, 2010 at 1:17 pm
@ John Q: The Phillies are going to have some big names on that 2011 staff but 3/5 are going to be 32 or over.
Pitchers who pitch at a high level aren't like batters, with an obvious rise and fall around age 27. If anything I'd be more concerned if 3/5ths of them were 30 -- that seems to be the age where many of them hit a crisis for a couple of years and then either recover to pitch well for several years after or don't recover at all (viz. Clemens, Carlton, and Blyleven on one side and Matlack, Blue, and Gooden on the other).
December 14th, 2010 at 1:22 pm
I'll preface this by stating I've been a Yankee fan since the '60's.
Cliff Lee is overrated.
As the best available free agent pitcher the market set his value, not his talent. In just about any other year he'd be an after-thought.
The Yanks won 95 games last season without Cliff Lee and AJ Burnett pitching like a replacement player.
I'm sorry, but I see Lee's contract being something of a Carl Pavano disaster and I'm thrilled almost beyond words he chose not to sign with New York.
Zack Greinke's a better pitcher, and I'd rather take my chances on him for two seasons even if it means costing us our prime minor league designated hitter prospect and a slap hitting outfielder coming off his career year.
I applaud Brian Cashman for making a legitimate offer and understanding the player's own rights in making the decision on where he wants to play.
Lee wasn't interested at all in playing in New York for any price and the deal he signed proved that.
December 14th, 2010 at 2:11 pm
[...] and Cole Hamels each made at least 30 starts last season and finished with an ERA+ above 130. Such a grouping has only happened once before in MLB history: the 1997 Atlanta Braves who featured Greg Maddux, John Smoltz, Tom Glavine, and Denny Neagle in [...]
December 14th, 2010 at 2:30 pm
1901 Boston Beaneaters:
Kid Nichols, 34 GS, 143 ERA+
Bill Dinneen, 34 GS, 141 ERA+
Vic Willis, 35 GS, 133 ERA+
Togie Pittinger, 33 GS, 129 ERA+
December 14th, 2010 at 2:44 pm
Kahuna -- Any mention of Togie Pittinger is good news. But something seems amiss. Of the 4 pitchers you cited for the 1901 Beaneaters, only Vic Willis is shown here with the ERA+ you cited:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BSN/1901.shtml
Dinneen, Nichols and Pittinger each had an ERA+ of 123 or below.
December 14th, 2010 at 3:26 pm
Yes, there is only one team for whom 4 pitchers started 30+ games with 130+ ERA+.
However, there might easily have been two. The 1954 Indians could have kept Steve Gromek (sent to Detroit in one of Cleveland disastrous 1946-59 trades). Gromek's 1954 was 32 starts and 136 ERA+ (and 17 complete games). Added to Garcia, Lemon, and Wynn (on the list above), that's 135 starts and 71 complete games.
Meanwhile, down at AAA Indianapolis, Herb Score in 1954 started 33 games, completing 21, striking out 330 and giving up 140 hits in 251 innings. And Sam Jones (an NL all-star in 1955) was Score's teammate.
December 14th, 2010 at 3:41 pm
But something seems amiss. Of the 4 pitchers you cited for the 1901 Beaneaters, only Vic Willis is shown here with the ERA+ you cited.
So sloppy. I was looking at the pitchers' strikeouts column. Thanks for the correction, John.
Now to stifle my embarrassment by gorging on skipjack.
December 14th, 2010 at 5:20 pm
Steve,
Interested in your take and comments on the ERA+ statistic. I know the basic definition but would like to evaluate it more. I find some of the new statistical benchmarks illuminating. Others, like several in the Moneyball realm, I find to be not very useless and something people point to when they don't really know the game much. So the ERA+, as I understand it, "normalizes" a particular pitcher's performance within his (favorable/unfavorable ballpark) to the league as a whole? I'd be interested to understand the factors and parameters if you have time. Off the top of my head, the 1971 Orioles rotation is pretty tough to top.
December 14th, 2010 at 7:53 pm
@ 1 Frank & @ 8 LJF
The 1971 Orioles had Four 20 game winners on their staff
The Orioles of 1971 don't make the above list because one of the controls was the ERA+ of 130+. None of the 4 players made that mark
ERA+ for each of the 4 Oriole pitchers of 1971:
Dave McNally 117, Mike Cuellar 109, Jim Palmer 126, and Pat Dobson 116.
All 4 had at least 30 starts.
Speaking of 20 game winners on a single pitching staff:
Only twice in the history of major league baseball has one team fielded four twenty game winners the same season. The first time it happened was in 1920 when the Chicago White Sox done it the year after the famous "Black Sox Scandal".
Red Faber won 23 games, Lefty Williams won 22, Dickie Kerr won 21, and Eddie Cicotte won 21.
The Orioles became the only other team to do it in 1971 when Dave McNally won 21 and Mike Cuellar, Jim Palmer, and Pat Dobson each won 20.
Cleveland came close in 1951 as Bob Feller won 22, Mike Garcia won 20 and Early Wynn won 20 but Bob Lemon only won 17 that year. Ironically, that was the only season between 1950 and 1954 in which Lemon failed to reach 20 wins.
Oakland also had three 20 game winners in 1973 when Catfish Hunter won 21, Ken Holtzman won 21, and Vida Blue won 20. However, no other teammate won more than 7 games that season.
December 14th, 2010 at 8:40 pm
Halliday, Oswalt and Hamels all meet the criteria. Lee (AL stats) had a 130 ERA+ but only 28 starts.
December 14th, 2010 at 9:20 pm
The '85 Royals & Blue Jays came pretty close to having 3 pitchers.
'85 Jays: Steib-173+, Key-142+, Alexander-124+
'85 Royals: Leibrandt-155+, Saberhagen-145+, D. Jackson-122+.
December 14th, 2010 at 10:48 pm
@17, Eric, about ERA+ -- Your question seems to have gone unanswered, so even though I'm not an expert on how ERA+ is derived, I'll take a shot:
You said you knew the basic formula, but I'll state it anyway (so that someone who knows better can correct me if I'm wrong!):
ERA+ = (league ERA) * (home park factor) * 100 / (player's ERA)
As to how the park factors are derived, there's info here:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/parkadjust.shtml
(I don't know why, but googling has not yet shown me a thorough, all-in-one-place explanation of ERA+ including park factors.)
December 15th, 2010 at 9:16 am
Chuck, I've been a Yankee fan as long as you. With Greinke's social anxiety disorder, I don't want him in NY. He could be another pitcher that can't handle NY. It could be an unmitigated Eddle Whitson-type disaster.
As far as those 10 teams listed, didn't anyone else notice that none of them won the World Series?
December 15th, 2010 at 10:28 am
Also, the 4 2011 Phillie starters combined for 812 SOs in 2010.
I know there are other staffs that had more than 800 Ks total for their top 4, but has there ever been a staff with 4 pitchers with 200 Ks.
The 1969 Astros come closest with three 200 K guys and one guy at 173. The only other team to have at least three pitchers with 200, was the '67 Twins.
In 2010 both the Giants and Phils had 2 pitchers each reach 200, and I believe they both have an excellent shot at getting at least three to do it this coming year.
In a related story, will having 4 SO/GO pitchers affect the infielders' overall values, if they all have less chances?
December 16th, 2010 at 9:23 am
http://www.baseball-reference.com/play-index/season_finder.cgi?type=p#gotresults&as=result_pitcher&offset=0&sum=smatchTeam&min_year_season=1901&max_year_season=2010&min_season=1&max_season=-1&min_age=0&max_age=99&lg_ID=lgAny&lgAL_team=tmAny&lgNL_team=tmAny&lgFL_team=tmAny&lgAA_team=tmAny&lgPL_team=tmAny&lgUA_team=tmAny&lgNA_team=tmAny&isFA=either&isActive=either&isHOF=either&isAllstar=either&throws=any&role=starter&games_started=60&games_relieved=80&qualifiersSeason=nomin&minIpValS=162&minDecValS=14&mingamesValS=40&qualifiersCareer=nomin&minIpValC=1000&minDecValC=100&mingamesValC=200&orderby=SO&layout=full&c1criteria=WAR_pitch&c1gtlt=gt&c1val=4.0&c2criteria=&c2gtlt=eq&c2val=0&c3criteria=&c3gtlt=eq&c3val=0&c4criteria=&c4gtlt=eq&c4val=0&c5criteria=&c5gtlt=eq&c5val=1.0&c6criteria=&location=pob&locationMatch=is&pob=&pod=&pcanada=&pusa=&ajax=1&submitter=1&z=1
Teams with most SP above 4.0 WAR.......another Braves team makes an appearance.
December 16th, 2010 at 9:24 am
So.....evidently I can't post a link.....sorry guys.
December 16th, 2010 at 4:32 pm
There must be something about ERA+ that makes it more difficult to score above 130 during the period 1960 through 1990?
As mentioned in posts above, this is highlighted by the good pitching Oriole teams of those eras not being included (in actuality, there are NO teams from that time period represented).
I guess based on the calculation, there is a smaller gap between the best pitchers and the worst pitchers than in the other eras. It is just strange that there is NO representation from the 40 years between 1956 and 1996. there were a lot of good teams/pitchers from then.
December 17th, 2010 at 5:06 pm
@26, Tmckelv -- I think you may be looking for a more complex explanation than is needed.
A 130 ERA+ is very good. Over the last 50 years, there's been an average of just 9 pitchers per season that met the requirements of this discussion. 457 pitcher-seasons in 1,268 team-seasons -- an average of roughly one such pitcher per 3 team-years. Thus, it's very unusual to have even 3 such pitchers on the same team, much less 4.
The teams that made Steve's list are probability outliers. There's no method to their distribution across the decades.
December 17th, 2010 at 6:19 pm
I think that explains most of it, John A. But there have been eras when high ERA+s were less common. (The reasons can be debated.)
December 17th, 2010 at 6:29 pm
I just searched since 1900 to see which pitcher had the most seasons of 130 ERA+ in each decade. Grove leads two decades (tied in the '20s). Every pitcher who led a decade is in the HOF or an obvious future HOFer, except Billy Pierce, with 5 in the '50s, Orel Hershiser with 5 in the '80s, and Johan Santana and Roy Halladay with 5 in the '00s. I suppose most people now think Halladay has established himself as a HOFer. Santana, despite clearly being the best pitcher in MLB for a few years, probably still needs more bulk to his career, and his future is a bit unpredictable.
December 18th, 2010 at 4:10 am
[...] Teams With 4 SP With 30+ GS & ERA+ Of 130+ 5, 1956, AL, Cleveland Indians, 3, Bob Lemon / Herb Score / Early Wynn. 6, 1954, AL, Cleveland Indians, 3, Mike Garcia / Bob Lemon / Early Wynn. 7, 1925, NL, Cincinnati Reds, 3, Pete Donohue / Dolf Luque / Eppa Rixey . [...]