Trivia time: Who has the most hits but isn’t in the Hall of Fame?
Posted by Andy on July 19, 2010
OK, most folks will immediately know that Pete Rose is the player with the most hits who isn't in the Hall of Fame.
But, can you answer this: which player has the most hits, made it to the Hall of Fame ballot, but is not in the Hall of Fame?
And which player has the most hits among those who made it to the ballot but are no longer on the ballot? (That should give you a clue about the first question.)
Answers are after the jump.
You can find all of the answers on the career hits leaders page.
#1 Pete Rose (4,256) - most career hits among players not in the Hall of Fame, to have never appeared on the ballot, and banned from appearing in the future
#20 Craig Biggio (3,060) - most career hits among among players not in the Hall of Fame and to have never appeared on the ballot. (This of course will change soon.)
#40 Harold Baines (2,866) - most career hits among players not in the Hall of Fame but still on the ballot
#49 Vada Pinson (2,757) - most career hits among players not in the Hall of Fame, make it to the ballot, but are no longer on the ballot
July 19th, 2010 at 12:38 pm
Not Related:
So I noticed that Ty Wigginton is currently the Baltimore starter at 1b & 2b this year.... and by that I mean, he's started the most games for the team at those positions. Has anyone ever been the 'starter' at multiple positions for a team for a whole year? Would that player even be considered the 'starter' or because he's the starter at another position that second position is void? Is there an easy way to look this up?
July 19th, 2010 at 12:42 pm
That Baynes stat makes me reiterate my request to Andy: please have a poll about Baynes candidacy to the Hall of Fame. Have a nice week, everyone.
July 19th, 2010 at 12:44 pm
Baynes? Surely you mean Baines.
Baines is one of my all-time favorite players. Worthwhile to have a poll I suppose.
July 19th, 2010 at 1:10 pm
Senator, you can have my answer now if you like. My offer is this: Nothing for Baines.
July 19th, 2010 at 1:18 pm
Second question of the day:
(no cheating)
Baines has the second most career HRs without exceeding 29 with 384.
Who is # 1?
July 19th, 2010 at 1:25 pm
@1 - I'm sure that there are others, but Brook Jacoby led the 1990 Indians in starts at 1st and starts at 3rd. http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CLE/1990-fielding.shtml
July 19th, 2010 at 1:30 pm
I was thinking Ripken but I think he hit 30+ in one of his MVP years. I think all the 400+ guys had at least 1 30 HR season so Ill go with Al Kaline with 399 total Im pretty sure.
July 19th, 2010 at 1:34 pm
continuing from 6:
1962 Dodgers: Jim Gilliam was the primary starter at 2nd & 3rd
1991 Indians: Carlos Baerga was the primary starter at 2nd & 3rd
July 19th, 2010 at 1:35 pm
@5
Al Kaline
We collected all the answers to that question a few months ago. Not sure how to find it. There were some fun names at the bottom of the list. (maybe Luis Alicea?)
July 19th, 2010 at 1:40 pm
I'm not going to be able to find it.
Ron Fairly started the discussion as he has the most without hitting 20. Al Kaline has the most without hitting 30. Eddie Murray the most without hitting 40. The bottom of the list contained many long-career low-power guys like Pete Rose and Eddie Collins and the very bottom of the list was mostly pitchers (Walter Johnson was one of them).
July 19th, 2010 at 1:43 pm
DavidRF-
http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/4667#comment-11627
July 19th, 2010 at 1:43 pm
DavidRF, your list is here:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/4667
on my Ron Fairly Card of the Week post.
July 19th, 2010 at 1:54 pm
The 1981 player strike and the 2004-5 strikes/lockouts
will keep Baines out of the Hall of Fame.
He would have made 3000 hits and 400 homers otherwise.
July 19th, 2010 at 1:57 pm
Thanks.... there's Luis Alicea... and Brad Ausmus and Jorge Orta. 🙂
July 19th, 2010 at 2:39 pm
@1 We can also add Nick Swisher 2006 A's 1B, LF.
So far we have:
Brook Jacoby 1990 CLE 3,5
Jim Gilliam 1962 LAD 4,5
Carlos Baerga 1991 CLE 4,5
Nick Swisher 2006 OAK 3,7
If anyone else is interested please copy and add to the list.
July 19th, 2010 at 2:49 pm
Here's 2 more:
Woody English 1930 CHC 5,6 (?) (No starting info available on the Fielding page)
Cal Ripken Jr. 1982 BAL 5,6
Brook Jacoby 1990 CLE 3,5
Jim Gilliam 1962 LAD 4,5
Carlos Baerga 1991 CLE 4,5
Nick Swisher 2006 OAK 3,7
July 19th, 2010 at 2:52 pm
So, what do people think about Pinson's HOF candidacy? Should he have gotten in? Or did the BBWAA do the right thing by keeping him out? I think he's an interesting candidate, he seems to fall short of being a shoo-in, but for whatever reason never picked up very much support. Al Oliver is a similar player to Pinson, a very, very good player, but he lasted just once on the HOF ballot. I remember reading within the last couple of years that Oliver was actually re-considered by the Veteran's Committee because he dropped off the ballot so soon. Obviously, he didn't make it in. Were Pinson and Oliver overlooked?
July 19th, 2010 at 3:07 pm
Yeah, that's amazing given Baines lost about 180 games to strikes which would have translated into 200 hits and 30 HR's thus giving him the 133 hits and 13 homers he needed to hit the 3000 hits/400 hr plateaus. He was quite good, but I always thought he was a borderliner. Perception would have been quite different if he hit these plateaus.
July 19th, 2010 at 3:16 pm
#5: I thought Chili Davis was up there, but then he had a 30-homerun season late in his career, if I recall.
July 19th, 2010 at 4:35 pm
@19
yes. Davis his 30 in 1997.
The top-10 career HR for those who never hit 30 is:
Kaline-399
Baines-384
Henderson-297
Biggio-291
O'Neill-281
Downing-275
Morgan-268
BRobinson-268
Hendrick-267
Wallach-260
July 19th, 2010 at 4:42 pm
Raphy, Gene Tenace came close in 1974. He had more games played at catcher and first base than any other A, but he was slightly behind Ray Fosse in games started and innings at catcher.
July 19th, 2010 at 4:52 pm
Technically - Yaz never had a thirty homer season...
just saying...
July 19th, 2010 at 4:57 pm
Most RBIs without a 100 RBI season?
I think i know, but I'm not 100%
July 19th, 2010 at 5:08 pm
in fact Yaz only hit over 21 homers 4x, 44, 40, 40, 28
if you assume Bonds, Palmiero, Thomas, Sheffield, and Sosa should go in the Hall whether or not they will due to "external" factors (Bonds and Thomas are in anyway I suppose), then Baines also has the most ribbies of anyone who won't get elected to it (he's also not in the Hall of Merit)
July 19th, 2010 at 5:15 pm
@23: Unless there is a player involved who has the same first and last name as another player, I believe that this is the top 10:
Pete Rose 1314
Eddie Collins 1300
Julio Franco 1194
Craig Biggio 1175
Mark Grace 1146
Tommy Corcoran 1135
Rickey Henderson 1115
Jimmy Ryan 1093
Lou Whitaker 1084
Sam Rice 1078
July 19th, 2010 at 5:15 pm
Davis had 1372 and did it 1x
Darrell Evans 1354 1x
Nettles 1314 1x
Rose 1314 0x
July 19th, 2010 at 5:16 pm
just beat me 🙂
July 19th, 2010 at 5:20 pm
#13
he also might have had 1700 ribbies too which would be an almost automatic election
July 19th, 2010 at 5:33 pm
@ 13 and @ 18
180 games isn't the number of games he missed. You need to look at this a bit more in depth.
Baines played 82 games in 1981 and 94 games in 1994. Had he played every single game, he would have lost a total of 148 games. However, he didn't play every game. In 1981, he played 82/106 CHW games and in 1994 he played 94/112. Averaging each of those out over the course of a 162 game season (as I think it would be silly to assume he'd play every game the strike cut out since he hadn't played in 18 and 24 respectively already) and it's safe to say he lost about 85 games due to the players' strikes.
The average number of AB in each of these seasons works out to around 3.4 per game or roughly 292 AB.
So in order for Baines to reach 3000 hits, he would have had to go 134 for 292, or a .459 avg. I don't think we can say he would have done that.
July 19th, 2010 at 5:36 pm
In fact, even if you say he'd start EVERY game his teams had missed, he'd still need to hit .372 in those games to get to 3000
July 19th, 2010 at 5:39 pm
I forgot about 1995 though that still only adds about 15 more games on to what I said.
July 19th, 2010 at 5:44 pm
Vada Pinson is worthy of a poll as well.
July 19th, 2010 at 5:51 pm
"The 1981 player strike and the 2004-5 strikes/lockouts will keep Baines out of the Hall of Fame. He would have made 3000 hits and 400 homers otherwise."
Hypothetical 3000-hit Baines is a perfect reason for why there should be no automatic milestone qualifiers: Kingman or Canseco with 500 home runs (the strike plus one more late career DH could have made it close), Kaat with 300 wins, or Brock with 3000 hits (...) are other examples.
July 19th, 2010 at 6:32 pm
wait, are we including Frank Thomas in with the steroid players? was he identified as such and i never heard or is this just speculation?
July 19th, 2010 at 6:56 pm
Harold Baines is the Bert Blyleven of hitters. This statement can be used both for and against.
July 19th, 2010 at 7:09 pm
#34, I don't see that. Baines was very good, probably great, but I don't think he's particularly underrated or overrated. Blyleven, on the other hand, was a lot better than most people seem to think.
July 19th, 2010 at 7:25 pm
no I was just lumping Thomas in with players who had more ribbies and are not yet in the hall, which I why I said he was probably, or is definitely, in
July 19th, 2010 at 7:45 pm
This is off-topic, but I at one point saw a link to a tool that, after I bookmarked it, would allow me to highlight a name on a website, click on the bookmark, and be taken to the B-R page for that person. Unfortunately, my computer broke, and now I want to try to get that link on my new computer.
July 19th, 2010 at 8:14 pm
Naveed,
I think it's the B-R Linker Tool you are looking for:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/linker/
July 19th, 2010 at 9:41 pm
@Raphy
Very good.
But Rose simply topped that list because of longevity.
Grace averaged 83 RBIs per 162 Gs, to Rose's 60. Bobby Murcer, I believe averaged 87. I wonder who has the highest RBI per 162 without ever hitting 100?
I know Keith Hernandez had six >90, <100 RBI seasons.
July 19th, 2010 at 10:06 pm
"Harold Baines is the Bert Blyleven of hitters"
Harold Baines is the Jim Kaat of hitters.
July 19th, 2010 at 10:07 pm
This list got me thinking of who had the most hits per season in their career. I am awful at figuring out how to do the more advanced stuff with the Play Index, so if anyone could help me out with figuring out how to do this I would appreciate it. I'm pretty sure its Ichiro, who I find amazing since he continues to churn out 200 hit seasons, but I'd like to know who follows him.
July 20th, 2010 at 12:31 am
@41
avg_H N H playerid
225.56 9 2030 suzukic01 - Ichiro Suzuki
192.00 12 2304 puckeki01 - Kirby Puckett
190.78 9 1717 pujolal01 - Albert Pujols
187.47 15 2812 sislege01 - George Sisler
186 1 186 waldrir01 - Irv Waldron
183.13 15 2747 jeterde01 - Derek Jeter
178.13 16 2850 burkeje01 - Jesse Burkett
177.33 24 4256 rosepe01 - Pete Rose
176 4 704 markani01 - Nick Markakis
175 5 875 canoro01 - Robinson Cano
174.54 24 4189 cobbty01 - Ty Cobb
I'm not a huge fan of this type of list because it punishes players who get a september call-up before they are rookies... but I guess over long careers that effect gets small. Jeter has now played long enough that his average drops by just 6 because of his september call-up the year before his rookie season.
July 20th, 2010 at 1:20 am
@39
I should have known what the highest RBI/G would be without reaching 100 in a season...
John Paciorek
Louis Graff
Tony Ordenana
Aubrey Epps
.... each had 3 RBI in their only game played. Fits your parameters. 🙂
Note: Any 100 RBI season drops you from consideration before the list below
G > 1 - Mahlon Higbee 1.67 RBI/G
G > 3 - Tom Stouch and Stan Wentzel 1.5 RBI/G
G > 4 - Tom Angley 1.2 RBI/G
G > 5 - Cliff Dapper and Frank Griffith 1.125 RBI/G
G > 8 - Rynie Wolters 1.1224 RBI/G
G > 49 - Steve King 1.0185
G > 54 - Levi Meyerle 0.90879 RBI/G
G > 307 - Cal McVey 0.84528 RBI/G
G > 530 - Bill Lange 0.7127 RBI/G
G > 811 - Bob Horner 0.67157 RBI/G
G > 1020 - King Kelly 0.65292 RBI/G
G > 1455 - Deacon White .62628 RBI/G
G > 1560 - John Anderson 0.59694
G > 1635 - Reggie Sanders 0.55318
G > 1777 - Bobby Murcer 0.54665
G > 1908 - Jimmy Ryan
G > 2012 - Tom Corcoran
G > 2200 - Mark Grace
G > 2245 - Julio Franco
G > 2527 - Eddie Collins
G > 2826 - Craig Biggio
G > 2850 - Pete Rose
I suppose I should weed out the pre-1890 guys because the seasons used to be shorter. Maybe later.
July 20th, 2010 at 5:46 am
Great blog. Any blog that brings up Harold Baines, Junior Gilliam, Al Kaline, Brad Asmus and Bobby Murcer as part of the discussion is right up my alley.
July 20th, 2010 at 6:58 am
How is Bill Mazeroski in the HOF and not Vada Pinson? Odd....
July 20th, 2010 at 7:14 am
Mazeroski turned the double-play pivot much better than Vada.
July 20th, 2010 at 7:40 am
Jeter may one day be at the top of a lot of lists of "Most X without Y." He may reach 300 HRs with never more than 25 and has a shot at 1300 RBI with a season high of just 102. He's also likely to achieve some big career milestones without winning an MVP (though he likely deserved at least 1).
July 20th, 2010 at 8:53 am
Thanx Dave.
With a name like Malhon Higbee, he should top every list.
Great baseball name.
I forgot about Horner.
He had 109 RBI/162 and 111 RBI/162 for his Brave career.
He benefited from some injury shortened seasons and an overall short career.
Bobby Cox tells a great story that at the beginning of one season, maybe even the first game of the season, he found Horner sitting out sprinting drills.
Horner told him he was 'tired'.
Cox said something like '161 games left, and Horner's exhausted.'
AH, to hear Bill James tell it is funnier.
@BSK
Jeter is going to all that, not to mention 400 SB without a 40 season. And the guy had at least 85% of his at bats hitting 1 or 2, that's great production.
Amazingly, as a leadoff hitter this year, he is swinging at 31% of first pitches seen. I don't know league averages, but that sounds high.
I'd switch him to second and have Gardner bat leadoff. It seems like a no brainer.
As far as Al Oliver and the Hall of Fame, I think he is borderline, but deserved a longer look. He was a late bloomer and played on some lousy teams. Cecil Cooper, who was also a late bloomer, deserved a better look as well. He came up into a very crowded Redsox outfield. I think he had a greater peak than Baines, Staub, Oliver, Buckner, all guys with better career numbers.
July 20th, 2010 at 1:14 pm
Speaking of Jeter, it will be interesting to see what the Yankees will do with him. You KNOW they have to sign him, but he's been kinda stinky this year, yet I don't think they can get away with paying him less than he makes now.
July 20th, 2010 at 6:35 pm
@ Rich,
Now that the Yanks have A-rod and Tex tied to long-term deals, where do you put Jeter. Next Year they may get Crawford, so there goes left field.
Swapping with A-rod now, would be an admission Yankee fans can never make.
Both player and team are sorta screwed.
Jeter can't join the Heat to play with Wade and Bosh, or any other team for that matter. His legacy would be ruined.
And the Yankees, like you said, are risking riots if they don't sign him.
So both sides have no negotiating room.
Jeter can't go anywhere else. And the Yankees have to give him what he wants.
They're gonna want this contract to go the rest of his career, avoid this problem in the future.
He also has a shot at some huge milestones.
3,500 Hits, 300 HRs, 2,000 Rs, 5,000 TB, most games at SS...etc.
The Bronx nearly exploded when he passed Gehrig, imagine 3,000.
The Yankees are gonna have to pay for him to pass those hurdles and Jeter's gonna have to know when to fold 'em.
Otherwise, it will get ugly.
July 20th, 2010 at 10:02 pm
Jeter can't [leave]. His legacy would be ruined.
Ridiculous.
July 21st, 2010 at 12:24 am
JohnnyT,
You obviously haven't been keeping up with sports news lately.
Lebron leaves bo-dunk Cleveland with no titles and only 7 years of service.
They burn his jersey, the team President takes out a full page add, Michael Jordan and Charles Barkley (who I haven't heard from in ages) say he is dead wrong, most NBA commentators think there will be security issues when he plays @ Cleveland, and right now, if he were to retire, no one would remember anything about him - except he left Cleveland... and, and, he needed a 4-days-of-hype press conference to do it.
What do you think would happen if Jeter left the Yankees after 16 years?
Just ask Michael Kay at YES.
July 21st, 2010 at 12:52 am
I can't stand LeBron, and I'm the only Knicks fan who didn't want him to come to NY, but the immediate reactions after a ridiculous infomercial announcing his plans do not constitute his legacy.
Moreover, how does Jeter parallel James in any way? Jeter is not the best player in the league, Jeter did not grow up in the immediate area, Jeter has won titles here, Jeter would not hold a TV special to announce he is leaving the Yankees.
Jeter wants to be a Yankee, the Yankees want him to be a Yankee, I'm sure something will get worked out. If it doesn't, it's not going to hurt Jeter's "legacy" (whatever that means) in any way (let alone "ruin" it). Mays left the Giants, Aaron left the Braves, Ruth left the Yankees, etc etc etc etc etc. Continuing to turn first pitches into soft grounders will hurt his legacy far more than playing for the Tigers or something.
July 21st, 2010 at 12:55 am
Ugh, and referring to Michael Kay for ANYTHING? Please stop.
July 21st, 2010 at 1:00 am
"it's not going to hurt Jeter's "legacy" in any way"
I'll modify that slightly. To a certain extent, Jeter would be more appreciated as a lifelong Yankee than if he spent a couple years elsewhere. But he's made his reputation here. Barring any unexpected craziness that might occur while he negotiates to go elsewhere, he'll still be fondly remembered as a great Yankee.
July 21st, 2010 at 5:04 am
Star players part from their teams near the end of their careers all the time. See Hank Aaron for example. It doesn't ruin their legacy. LeBron is 25 and yet to hit his prime. Totally different and unprecedented thing. Whereas a longtime veteran hanging on for a couple subpar seasons somewhere else is standard.
July 21st, 2010 at 9:05 am
Michael Kay was a joke.
He talks about Jeter is a saccharin-make you sick fawning, that makes one believe Jeter is divine, or Kay is an infatuated school girl.
I don't like LeBron either.
My point is he held the entire sports entertainment industry hostage while he pompously held that ridiculous "live from the pulpit' garbage. So would Jeter.
He may not be the best, but he is the most endorsed and I think that is one barometer of a player's popularity. And the seats he will fill when he gets to 3000 and the stupid hours-long ceremony to follow will be worth millions to the YES network. "THe tri-state Ford/Lincoln/Mercury Jeter countdown." Or some such rubbish.
Mays, Aaron and Ruth all left after they passed their milestones and were past being everyday players. Ruth actually created milestones, but anyway, he and Hank went to teams to be sideshows, and Mays was just a Met as a role player.
What do you think would of happened if another over-the hill, not the best SS left his team to play game # 2131 in Houston?
Do you think Ripken would still get free slurpees at Baltimore area 7-11's?
SlimJims?
I didn't think so.
Legacy?
Yeah Jeter has a legacy.
Not one current team has a player represent their organization as much as Jeter does the Yankees. And not one team has as much history as the Yankees.
Pujols might be a close second, but I think stats before I think Cards when I hear his name.
I hate the Yankees, but Jeter makes me hate them less.
July 21st, 2010 at 10:22 am
makes one believe Jeter is divine, or Kay is an infatuated school girl.
I've always thought both of these were true...
he held the entire sports entertainment industry hostage while he pompously held that ridiculous "live from the pulpit' garbage. So would Jeter.
I disagree. Jeter would not make such an event of it, he is too low-key and too aware of his image. It couldn't be such an event, just because of the differences, e.g. Jeter is not as good as James; a baseball player cannot change a team like one basketball player can; there hasn't been two-plus years of anticipation to Jeter's free agency; salary cap rules don't prevent other transactions from occurring while teams and players wait to see where Jeter will go.
I certainly agree that YES and the tabloids' fawning over Jeter as he reaches 3000 hits, etc, will be nauseating.
July 21st, 2010 at 3:26 pm
I wonder how the Yankees fans would react to Jeter joining the Red Sox because for no logical reason at all it has caused many Packer fans to dislike Brett Favre, even though Favre was forced out of Green Bay. Any response Yankee fans?
July 21st, 2010 at 4:26 pm
It would be an appalling betrayal. I can't imagine Jeter doing that.
If he were just hanging on at the end, desperately wanting to play anywhere, in any role, and for some reason the Red Sox were the only team that made him an offer, that would be understandable. But I also don't think Jeter would do that, play until he's dragged off the field.
July 21st, 2010 at 4:58 pm
To be more parallel to Favre: Lets say Jeter wants to finish his career with the Yankees but they have a good, young SS waiting to start for a few years. Jeter gets his 3000th with the Yankees but he is still an above average SS. Jeter is willing to lose his starting job and volunteers to compete with the the young SS for the starting SS job. (Also, assume the Yankees have not won the WS since 2000 and Jeter wants one more chance to play in the WS). Then, the Yankees trade him to a far away team that wont play the Yankees in interleague for a while, say the Dodgers. He retires (Im not sure exactly how MLB contracts compare with NFL) so if he couldnt retire to get out of his contract say he becomes a FA after 1 season with the Dodgers. Then say the Red Sox are a good SS away from being the best team in the AL so Jeter signs with the Red Sox. Say this young Jeter replacement plays well in NY and Jeter plays well in Boston.
How to you feel about his then?
July 21st, 2010 at 5:12 pm
Also, trust me Johnny, there was no way in my wildest dreams I would have dreamed that Favre would play for the Vikes...but that is what happens when new GMs come in and they want their guy on the field instead of the old guy.
Who knows if Steinbrenner's death may cause a change in ownership and a new Yankee GM who wants his own SS...although Rodgers was drafted when Favre was only 34 and MLB players take longer to develop than NFL so you are probably safe.
July 21st, 2010 at 10:10 pm
@Mike
Your scenario almost happened to the letter. I just can't think of the young SSs name.
Anyway, Ozzie Smith announced it would be his last year and the Cards go and get... Royce Clayton (that's it!) from the Giants.
And he sits under Ozzie, playing every third game, some at 3B, late innings, etc.
Its basically Ozzie's farewell tour of the National League, but for some reason, Ozzie (who was all class) just oft handedly tells a reporter, 'I'm having so much fun, I'm gonna stick around a few more years.'
It was a PR nightmare. The Cards looked like they were forcing out one of their most popular players, and Ozzie looked like he was reneging on a deal.
The situation resolved itself, but I think it could of turned very ugly.
July 21st, 2010 at 10:12 pm
Oh, JohnnyT,
Jeter went 3 for 5 today.
Want to know how I know?
I heard Michael Kay moaning from the Major Deegan.
July 21st, 2010 at 11:33 pm
Ha!
Hopefully he gets run over.
July 22nd, 2010 at 4:56 am
Jeter ia the Yankees Varitek next year (or the year after)
July 23rd, 2010 at 11:13 pm
What about Zack Wheat? He had 2,884 hits, but is not in the Hall of Fame.
July 24th, 2010 at 9:27 am
Zack Wheat is in the Hall of Fame.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/w/wheatza01.shtml
July 25th, 2010 at 2:39 pm
As for players leaving their teams, that largely occurred during a time when these players still needed the cash so they hung on a few extra years....or, with a few that still wanted to pad their stats some b/c they were borderliners that still needed a milestone or two.. Neither will be an issue with Jeter. The Favre situation is very odd and besides contracts in the NFL aren't garunteed. Jeter won't go anywhere, but I do see problems in a couple years. He's going to have to become a DH/all utility guy if he's to co-exist with A-rod and perhaps Posada another couple years. Best case scenario, he plays no more than 2 years at SS, and at that time Posada retires. Posada is signed thru 2011, but I see him wanting to play thru 2012 to hit a milestone or two --also, he's a switch hitter with pop that could still perhaps catch 30-45 games and DH 80 games in 2012.
As for Jeter becoming the Red Sox Varitek, I don't see that so much given he'll be able to play more positions than Varitek. Jeter will have to make some changes by being willing to play some outfield and perhaps occasional games at other infield positions(when others have a day off) in addition to some DH-ing here and there. Either way, I actually see A-rod being a Yankee in 6-7 years and Jeter will be retired.
July 25th, 2010 at 9:17 pm
I don't know that I see Derek Jeter willingly playing other positions just to stay with the Yankees. He didn't move from SS when Rodriguez came along, and the latter was an established player, not some up-and-coming/might-not-work-out guy. If Jeter has a choice between starting at SS for another team or staying in NY and being a bench player (or at least an everyday non-SS0, I think he still goes for the former.
July 25th, 2010 at 11:00 pm
No one asked Jeter to move positions for Rodriguez. Do you believe he should have suggested it himself, when A-Rod was asked about his willingness to move to 3B before the deal was completed?
July 26th, 2010 at 8:23 am
As Johnny Twisto points out Jeter was never asked to switch. Yes, A-rod was already established, but he wasn't established as a yankee --big difference.
Jeter's perfectly aware of his legacy and he'll retire before moving teams to play SS. If he can only play SS for two more years and doesn't want to switch positions, then he'll retire. I think best case scenario is the above and I do see him eventually realizing he will have to play other positions IF he wants to continue to play 3-4 years from now.
July 26th, 2010 at 9:20 am
Well, there was definitely a lot of speculation that he would be asked (or that he would actually move), and there was a lot of talk too about he or Rodriguez moving to CF. I'm not sure that Jeter wasn't asked, but you guys may have better information than I do. I just think that given his reputation as a team-first player, he should very well have offered to make the switch if doing so would net them Rodriguez. If Rodriguez were told he'd have to move in order for the team to sign him, then it's a moot point.
I guess time will tell. I realize he's supposed to be a True Yankee and all that hogwash, but it wouldn't surprise me if he left to start at SS somewhere else.
July 26th, 2010 at 9:42 am
I don't remember "a lot of talk" about him moving to the outfield --there's been some (maybe I'm wrong). There has been talk about Jeter perhaps having to move to outfield or even 1B (before Texeria came), but it never seemed all that serious. I've never heard anything about A-rod moving to the outfield. Jeter's too aware of his legacy to hang on and move around, especially since he'll need no money or milestones for Hall or enhancement of legacy. I could see Posada moving if he really wants to hang on --- he's so stubborn, but I don't see Jeter moving. I think Jeter's next contract will be telling at end of this season, and I wouldn't be shocked if he signed something in the 4-5 year range for 100-120 million --it'll be a bit of a golden parachute tied to hit incentives and who he passes on hit list. If he does sign for 4-5 years, no team will want to pick him up in years 3+ at that price unless the Yanks want to eat nearly the whole thing --I just don't see that happening. We'll see.
I consider Trammell more of a true-Tiger than Kirk Gibson. 🙂
July 26th, 2010 at 9:54 am
I didn't specify that the talk was serious... I just said there was speculation. Obviously not important now, because there's literally no reason for him to move to the outfield at this point. He could DH, certainly, and since he's become a defensive liability maybe he'll have to.
July 26th, 2010 at 11:53 am
My bad Dan --there's definitely been some speculation. He's definitely having a down year, but I wouldn't be shocked to see his year end up fair (2.5-3.0 WAR....and, I wouldn't be shocked if he still has one more 4+ WAR year at SS in him. He was written off two years ago and then went and had one of his best offensive and defensive years of his career last year. If he want's to hang on as Yankee he'll have to be willing to move around positions at some point. Jeter wants to be part-owner of the Yanks and so i just don't see he him changing teams to hang on get another 300 hits. It'll change his narrative too much. His overall legacy is more important to him as a lifer Yank than finishing 5th on hits list instead of 9th.