Best starting pitcher, 1982-1985
Posted by Andy on December 20, 2007
The other day, in a previous post, I stumbled onto just how good Mario Soto was from 1982 to 1985. Click through for some statistical proof of that.
These searches are all done using the PI Pitching Season Finder, and summing the results over the years 1982 to 1985.
First off, most innings pitched:
Cnt Player **IP** From To Ages G GS CG SHO GF W L W-L% SV H R ER BB SO ERA ERA+ HR BF IBB HBP BK WP Teams BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ SH SF 2B 3B GDP SB CS Pk +----+-----------------+----------+----+----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+---+-----+---+----+----+----+----+----+------+----+---+-----+---+---+---+---+-----------+-----+-----+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+----+---+---+ 1 Dave Stieb 1098.1 1982 1985 24-27 145 145 52 13 0 64 47 .577 0 915 397 355 352 693 2.91 148 89 4500 14 39 3 14 TOR .226 .293 .339 .632 69 38 20 151 20 75 45 37 4 2 Fernando Valenzue 1075.1 1982 1985 21-24 141 141 53 15 0 63 50 .558 0 921 428 360 389 836 3.01 117 57 4437 31 8 3 37 LAD .234 .302 .328 .630 82 70 26 167 17 81 92 63 25 3 Jack Morris 1057.1 1982 1985 27-30 144 144 59 9 0 72 51 .585 0 937 458 420 376 706 3.58 111 108 4403 26 10 3 57 DET .236 .302 .366 .668 84 28 24 144 24 72 71 38 2 4 Mario Soto 1025.1 1982 1985 25-28 138 137 53 6 1 61 48 .560 0 786 395 357 357 915 3.13 120 103 4173 18 16 5 19 CIN .211 .281 .340 .621 76 42 32 137 18 40 117 47 1 5 Joaquin Andujar 1021.2 1982 1985 29-32 151 145 36 13 4 62 52 .544 1 935 414 376 277 521 3.31 108 69 4178 39 28 12 16 STL .245 .300 .359 .659 89 43 20 166 29 78 101 39 23 6 Joe Niekro 1007.1 1982 1985 37-40 146 146 35 8 0 59 51 .536 0 896 406 356 361 530 3.18 106 67 4190 16 17 3 66 HOU-TOT .240 .307 .335 .642 90 37 34 120 19 72 153 45 3 7 Charlie Hough 996.1 1982 1985 34-37 138 137 54 7 1 61 56 .521 0 894 436 392 344 585 3.54 115 92 4135 9 26 6 38 TEX .240 .307 .373 .680 87 18 23 166 26 77 72 53 24 8 Dan Petry 984.1 1982 1985 23-26 142 142 32 5 0 67 41 .620 0 897 416 377 346 507 3.45 116 97 4076 25 16 0 34 DET .244 .310 .377 .687 89 18 17 151 24 101 56 48 11 9 La Marr Hoyt 946.1 1982 1985 27-30 140 133 44 7 2 72 51 .585 0 938 431 398 142 481 3.79 106 95 3843 12 10 5 5 CHW-SDP .257 .285 .402 .687 88 23 23 182 31 72 60 31 3 10 Ron Guidry 927 1982 1985 31-34 128 125 43 7 1 67 34 .663 0 914 409 381 215 588 3.70 106 100 3833 12 5 4 14 NYY .257 .298 .407 .705 94 23 34 184 25 77 50 38 6
Soto is 4th, just a shade behind Stieb, Fernando, and Jack Morris. Note too that Soto had fewer starts plus one relief appearance. With 5 more starts, he could have had as many as 30-40 more innings. Still not good enough for first, but 2nd or 3rd place is nothing to sneeze at. (Also, I don't know why Soto missed starts. He could have been hurt, tired, or simply passed over.)
How about strikeouts:
Cnt Player **SO** From To Ages G GS CG SHO GF W L W-L% SV IP H R ER BB ERA ERA+ HR BF IBB HBP BK WP Teams BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ SH SF 2B 3B GDP SB CS Pk +----+-----------------+--------+----+----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+---+-----+---+------+----+----+----+----+------+----+---+-----+---+---+---+---+-----------+-----+-----+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+----+---+---+ 1 Mario Soto 915 1982 1985 25-28 138 137 53 6 1 61 48 .560 0 1025.1 786 395 357 357 3.13 120 103 4173 18 16 5 19 CIN .211 .281 .340 .621 76 42 32 137 18 40 117 47 1 2 Fernando Valenzue 836 1982 1985 21-24 141 141 53 15 0 63 50 .558 0 1075.1 921 428 360 389 3.01 117 57 4437 31 8 3 37 LAD .234 .302 .328 .630 82 70 26 167 17 81 92 63 25 3 Nolan Ryan 834 1982 1985 35-38 129 129 24 7 0 52 44 .542 0 862.1 678 360 313 374 3.27 103 53 3597 16 25 8 43 HOU .216 .302 .314 .616 83 31 26 104 22 58 128 39 5 4 Steve Carlton 772 1982 1985 37-40 124 124 28 9 0 52 42 .553 0 900.1 828 378 325 302 3.25 112 57 3741 26 4 27 36 PHI .246 .307 .352 .659 88 48 17 150 19 69 71 49 29 5 Floyd Bannister 752 1982 1985 27-30 137 136 18 6 0 52 48 .520 0 893 838 448 406 328 4.09 104 111 3788 10 15 1 35 SEA-CHW .247 .314 .407 .721 93 26 27 168 20 64 63 34 7 6 Jack Morris 706 1982 1985 27-30 144 144 59 9 0 72 51 .585 0 1057.1 937 458 420 376 3.58 111 108 4403 26 10 3 57 DET .236 .302 .366 .668 84 28 24 144 24 72 71 38 2 7 Dave Stieb 693 1982 1985 24-27 145 145 52 13 0 64 47 .577 0 1098.1 915 397 355 352 2.91 148 89 4500 14 39 3 14 TOR .226 .293 .339 .632 69 38 20 151 20 75 45 37 4 8 Rick Sutcliffe 617 1982 1985 26-29 125 117 31 9 3 59 33 .641 1 834 778 376 332 329 3.58 114 67 3527 13 16 7 25 CLE-TOT-CHC .248 .320 .377 .697 91 23 25 142 31 54 79 42 31 9 Ron Guidry 588 1982 1985 31-34 128 125 43 7 1 67 34 .663 0 927 914 409 381 215 3.70 106 100 3833 12 5 4 14 NYY .257 .298 .407 .705 94 23 34 184 25 77 50 38 6 10 Charlie Hough 585 1982 1985 34-37 138 137 54 7 1 61 56 .521 0 996.1 894 436 392 344 3.54 115 92 4135 9 26 6 38 TEX .240 .307 .373 .680 87 18 23 166 26 77 72 53 24
He's #1, and #1 by a mile with nearly 10% more K's than #2 Fernando. (Does it surprise anybody else to see Charlie Hough make this list?)
Now, you'd say--Soto was helped in strikeouts because he pitched so many innings. That's true, but let's also look at K/9 IP:
Cnt Player **SO/9** IP From To Ages G GS CG SHO GF W L W-L% SV H R ER BB SO ERA ERA+ HR BF IBB HBP BK WP Teams BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ SH SF 2B 3B GDP SB CS Pk +----+-----------------+---------+------+----+----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+---+-----+---+----+----+----+----+----+------+----+---+-----+---+---+---+---+-----------+-----+-----+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+----+---+---+ 1 Nolan Ryan 8.70 862.1 1982 1985 35-38 129 129 24 7 0 52 44 .542 0 678 360 313 374 834 3.27 103 53 3597 16 25 8 43 HOU .216 .302 .314 .616 83 31 26 104 22 58 128 39 5 2 Mario Soto 8.03 1025.1 1982 1985 25-28 138 137 53 6 1 61 48 .560 0 786 395 357 357 915 3.13 120 103 4173 18 16 5 19 CIN .211 .281 .340 .621 76 42 32 137 18 40 117 47 1 3 Steve Carlton 7.72 900.1 1982 1985 37-40 124 124 28 9 0 52 42 .553 0 828 378 325 302 772 3.25 112 57 3741 26 4 27 36 PHI .246 .307 .352 .659 88 48 17 150 19 69 71 49 29 4 Dave Righetti 7.67 603.1 1982 1985 23-26 202 58 11 2 116 42 31 .575 61 524 249 218 257 514 3.25 120 33 2556 16 8 8 26 NYY .233 .312 .325 .637 77 28 16 77 15 50 51 14 7 5 Floyd Bannister 7.58 893 1982 1985 27-30 137 136 18 6 0 52 48 .520 0 838 448 406 328 752 4.09 104 111 3788 10 15 1 35 SEA-CHW .247 .314 .407 .721 93 26 27 168 20 64 63 34 7 6 Steve Bedrosian 7.42 548 1982 1985 24-27 211 45 0 0 110 33 37 .471 41 465 213 195 252 452 3.20 119 40 2323 24 14 0 12 ATL .230 .318 .337 .655 84 24 14 79 8 42 77 21 1 7 Fernando Valenzue 7.00 1075.1 1982 1985 21-24 141 141 53 15 0 63 50 .558 0 921 428 360 389 836 3.01 117 57 4437 31 8 3 37 LAD .234 .302 .328 .630 82 70 26 167 17 81 92 63 25 8 Bruce Berenyi 6.91 588.1 1982 1985 27-30 101 98 8 2 2 31 45 .408 0 552 281 249 303 452 3.81 97 23 2549 12 6 3 38 CIN-TOT-NYM .252 .343 .343 .686 96 37 14 92 19 70 86 24 2 9 John Candelaria 6.89 683 1982 1985 28-31 147 103 7 3 31 48 33 .593 12 663 260 236 154 523 3.11 120 61 2782 12 11 3 7 PIT-TOT .258 .300 .397 .697 97 26 23 127 23 49 25 33 2 10 Rick Sutcliffe 6.66 834 1982 1985 26-29 125 117 31 9 3 59 33 .641 1 778 376 332 329 617 3.58 114 67 3527 13 16 7 25 CLE-TOT-CHC .248 .320 .377 .697 91 23 25 142 31 54 79 42 31
There he is at #2. I should mention that this list requires minimum 500 IP over 1982-1985. This weeds out a lot of closer and middle relief guys (although some closers such as Righetti and Bedrosian got through.)
So, then you say--OK sure he struck out a lot of guys, but he probably gave up a lot of baserunners. Well here are the leaders in WHIP:
Cnt Player **WHIP** IP From To Ages G GS CG SHO GF W L W-L% SV H R ER BB SO ERA ERA+ HR BF IBB HBP BK WP Teams BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ SH SF 2B 3B GDP SB CS Pk +----+-----------------+---------+------+----+----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+---+-----+---+----+----+----+----+----+------+----+---+-----+---+---+---+---+-----------+-----+-----+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+----+---+---+ 1 Dan Quisenberry 1.045 534 1982 1985 29-32 297 0 0 0 273 28 22 .560 161 507 158 141 51 189 2.38 172 36 2103 13 1 0 1 KCR .252 .269 .347 .616 68 22 17 63 10 63 20 11 6 2 Mario Soto 1.115 1025.1 1982 1985 25-28 138 137 53 6 1 61 48 .560 0 786 395 357 357 915 3.13 120 103 4173 18 16 5 19 CIN .211 .281 .340 .621 76 42 32 137 18 40 117 47 1 3 La Marr Hoyt 1.141 946.1 1982 1985 27-30 140 133 44 7 2 72 51 .585 0 938 431 398 142 481 3.79 106 95 3843 12 10 5 5 CHW-SDP .257 .285 .402 .687 88 23 23 182 31 72 60 31 3 4 Dave Stieb 1.154 1098.1 1982 1985 24-27 145 145 52 13 0 64 47 .577 0 915 397 355 352 693 2.91 148 89 4500 14 39 3 14 TOR .226 .293 .339 .632 69 38 20 151 20 75 45 37 4 5 Atlee Hammaker 1.171 551 1982 1985 24-27 87 85 13 5 0 29 29 .500 0 529 234 202 116 353 3.30 107 44 2272 26 5 12 12 SFG .252 .290 .371 .661 91 33 16 84 17 37 45 27 13 6 Dave Dravecky 1.177 660 1982 1985 26-29 143 83 19 5 29 41 32 .562 10 592 247 224 185 309 3.05 116 56 2689 12 9 6 7 SDP .243 .297 .361 .658 90 44 11 94 14 59 46 26 5 7 Bryn Smith 1.182 636 1982 1985 26-29 156 73 13 7 33 38 33 .535 6 594 251 218 158 379 3.08 113 45 2612 21 9 7 13 MON .248 .295 .362 .657 91 35 12 102 19 53 47 32 1 8 Bert Blyleven 1.185 715.1 1982 1985 31-34 98 97 41 9 0 45 35 .563 0 644 295 260 204 518 3.27 128 52 2956 9 25 2 15 CLE-TOT .239 .297 .350 .647 76 13 23 100 21 56 67 24 2 9 Joaquin Andujar 1.186 1021.2 1982 1985 29-32 151 145 36 13 4 62 52 .544 1 935 414 376 277 521 3.31 108 69 4178 39 28 12 16 STL .245 .300 .359 .659 89 43 20 166 29 78 101 39 23 10 John Tudor 1.195 924.2 1982 1985 28-31 134 132 33 14 1 59 41 .590 0 860 361 325 245 568 3.16 125 85 3812 12 18 5 13 BOS-PIT-STL .246 .297 .367 .664 83 27 19 142 14 64 61 34 14
Again it's minimum 500 IP. Quisenberry takes the top spot, but Soto is by far in the lead for starters, a couple percent ahead of Hoyt.
Here are wins over that span:
Cnt Player **W** IP From To Ages G GS CG SHO GF L W-L% SV H R ER BB SO ERA ERA+ HR BF IBB HBP BK WP Teams BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ SH SF 2B 3B GDP SB CS Pk +----+-----------------+-------+------+----+----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+-----+---+----+----+----+----+----+------+----+---+-----+---+---+---+---+-----------+-----+-----+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+----+---+---+ 1 La Marr Hoyt 72 946.1 1982 1985 27-30 140 133 44 7 2 51 .585 0 938 431 398 142 481 3.79 106 95 3843 12 10 5 5 CHW-SDP .257 .285 .402 .687 88 23 23 182 31 72 60 31 3 2 Jack Morris 72 1057.1 1982 1985 27-30 144 144 59 9 0 51 .585 0 937 458 420 376 706 3.58 111 108 4403 26 10 3 57 DET .236 .302 .366 .668 84 28 24 144 24 72 71 38 2 3 Ron Guidry 67 927 1982 1985 31-34 128 125 43 7 1 34 .663 0 914 409 381 215 588 3.70 106 100 3833 12 5 4 14 NYY .257 .298 .407 .705 94 23 34 184 25 77 50 38 6 4 Dan Petry 67 984.1 1982 1985 23-26 142 142 32 5 0 41 .620 0 897 416 377 346 507 3.45 116 97 4076 25 16 0 34 DET .244 .310 .377 .687 89 18 17 151 24 101 56 48 11 5 Dave Stieb 64 1098.1 1982 1985 24-27 145 145 52 13 0 47 .577 0 915 397 355 352 693 2.91 148 89 4500 14 39 3 14 TOR .226 .293 .339 .632 69 38 20 151 20 75 45 37 4 6 Fernando Valenzue 63 1075.1 1982 1985 21-24 141 141 53 15 0 50 .558 0 921 428 360 389 836 3.01 117 57 4437 31 8 3 37 LAD .234 .302 .328 .630 82 70 26 167 17 81 92 63 25 7 Joaquin Andujar 62 1021.2 1982 1985 29-32 151 145 36 13 4 52 .544 1 935 414 376 277 521 3.31 108 69 4178 39 28 12 16 STL .245 .300 .359 .659 89 43 20 166 29 78 101 39 23 8 Charlie Hough 61 996.1 1982 1985 34-37 138 137 54 7 1 56 .521 0 894 436 392 344 585 3.54 115 92 4135 9 26 6 38 TEX .240 .307 .373 .680 87 18 23 166 26 77 72 53 24 9 Scott McGregor 61 886.2 1982 1985 28-31 138 137 37 7 0 45 .575 0 951 438 403 216 323 4.09 97 107 3753 12 8 1 6 BAL .274 .315 .424 .739 103 27 29 161 19 74 47 28 11 10 Mario Soto 61 1025.1 1982 1985 25-28 138 137 53 6 1 48 .560 0 786 395 357 357 915 3.13 120 103 4173 18 16 5 19 CIN .211 .281 .340 .621 76 42 32 137 18 40 117 47 1
Soto is all the way down at 10th place here, but that was for a Reds team that went 294-353 over the 4 years from 1982 to 1985. That's a team W-L% of just .454.
League leaders in losses over that same period:
Cnt Player **L** IP From To Ages G GS CG SHO GF W W-L% SV H R ER BB SO ERA ERA+ HR BF IBB HBP BK WP Teams BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ SH SF 2B 3B GDP SB CS Pk +----+-----------------+-------+------+----+----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+-----+---+----+----+----+----+----+------+----+---+-----+---+---+---+---+-----------+-----+-----+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+----+---+---+ 1 Charlie Hough 56 996.1 1982 1985 34-37 138 137 54 7 1 61 .521 0 894 436 392 344 585 3.54 115 92 4135 9 26 6 38 TEX .240 .307 .373 .680 87 18 23 166 26 77 72 53 24 2 Frank Tanana 56 815 1982 1985 28-31 127 120 23 1 1 41 .423 0 797 401 338 242 495 3.73 109 88 3460 26 23 7 23 TEX-TOT .253 .310 .400 .710 94 31 20 147 25 51 47 33 13 3 Joaquin Andujar 52 1021.2 1982 1985 29-32 151 145 36 13 4 62 .544 1 935 414 376 277 521 3.31 108 69 4178 39 28 12 16 STL .245 .300 .359 .659 89 43 20 166 29 78 101 39 23 4 Bill Laskey 52 693.2 1982 1985 24-27 122 116 10 1 3 40 .435 0 724 352 316 191 300 4.10 86 71 2947 13 13 5 10 SFG-TOT .270 .320 .416 .736 113 43 22 148 15 48 79 35 1 5 Danny Darwin 51 713.1 1982 1985 26-29 158 88 25 4 51 34 .400 9 731 346 295 218 401 3.72 110 68 3048 17 13 1 13 TEX-MIL .264 .318 .397 .715 96 27 24 124 20 49 66 23 2 6 La Marr Hoyt 51 946.1 1982 1985 27-30 140 133 44 7 2 72 .585 0 938 431 398 142 481 3.79 106 95 3843 12 10 5 5 CHW-SDP .257 .285 .402 .687 88 23 23 182 31 72 60 31 3 7 Bob Knepper 51 857.2 1982 1985 28-31 140 129 23 6 3 41 .446 1 871 405 339 240 504 3.56 95 73 3607 17 11 2 17 HOU .265 .315 .386 .701 107 37 27 142 19 88 78 41 4 8 Jack Morris 51 1057.1 1982 1985 27-30 144 144 59 9 0 72 .585 0 937 458 420 376 706 3.58 111 108 4403 26 10 3 57 DET .236 .302 .366 .668 84 28 24 144 24 72 71 38 2 9 Joe Niekro 51 1007.1 1982 1985 37-40 146 146 35 8 0 59 .536 0 896 406 356 361 530 3.18 106 67 4190 16 17 3 66 HOU-TOT .240 .307 .335 .642 90 37 34 120 19 72 153 45 3 10 Rick Rhoden 51 926.1 1982 1985 29-32 139 138 21 6 1 48 .485 1 965 410 368 269 545 3.58 103 58 3900 26 11 15 33 PIT .270 .322 .385 .707 102 36 13 181 27 77 63 53 20
Soto was tied for 17th with 48 losses. Still, though, I don't think much of his "poor" W-L% can be blamed on him. (Not that a 61-48 record is actually poor.) By the way, the standard neutralization on his stats gives him these records: 1982: 18-10, 1983: 20-10, 1984: 14-12, 1985: 15-13. That's 67-45.)
I think there could be a could debate over who the best pitcher was 1982-1985. Certainly cases could be made for Stieb, Valenzuela, Hoyt, Morris, and Ryan. But the way I see it, Soto should be right in that mix, and probably comes out on top in my book.
December 20th, 2007 at 9:18 am
You left John Tudor off your list of strong candidates. Also Candeleria, and Adujar deserve some consideration.
In my eyes Steib is the clear winner. Among starting pitchers with at least 100 starts in that time frame: He led in OPS+ (Soto is 2), ERA+ (Soto is 4), and Quality Start% (Soto is 2). He's tied for third in shutouts (Soto is 25).
Just for kicks I ran the Average game score for 100+ start pitchers from that time. Soto is 1 and Steib 2. http://www.bb-ref.com/pi/shareit/n3zc
December 20th, 2007 at 10:11 am
I ran a couple of things through the game finder.
Most starts in that time period that were:
great (7+ inn, r
December 20th, 2007 at 10:13 am
Sorry, I forgot about the HTML quirks. Here's the post:
I ran a couple of things through the game finder.
Most starts in that time period that were:
great (7+ inn, r less than or equal to 2) http://www.bb-ref.com/pi/shareit/9F62
1. Steib 66
2. Soto 61
3. Morris 58
dominant (8+ inn, r less than or equal to 1) http://www.bb-ref.com/pi/shareit/sGGJ
1. Steib 33
2. Valenzuela 32
3. Gooden 27 (In half the time!)
4. Soto 26
December 20th, 2007 at 10:49 am
Well, I have no problem with Stieb being the consensus pick for best pitcher 1982-1985. I have mentioned on previous posts that he is a much better pitcher than how he is remembered, and if he'd been just slightly luckier to have had a couple of his very-near-misses turn into no-hitters, such that he had 2 or 3 in his career instead of 1, he'd be remembered for the great pitcher he was.
Unfortunately, I don't know who this "Steib" is you are talking about. I only know "Stieb".
December 20th, 2007 at 10:56 am
Soto had a very nice run there, but I don't think there's any way you can pick him over Stieb for that period. You left out the leaders in ERA+, where Stieb blows away every other starter. He's at 148, Soto at 120. Combine that with Stieb being #1 in IP, #5 in W, and having solid K totals -- he's gotta be the pick.
December 20th, 2007 at 11:21 am
Andy: Do you really want me to repost with the corrected spelling?
Trivia: From 1982-1985 which pitcher had the most starts of 7+ innings and 2 or less hits?
December 20th, 2007 at 11:55 am
Oscar, no---but I'll tell you that I believe Dave Stieb once contacted Sean regarding his salary info posted on his page, so it's just possible that he reads this blog. (I'm not fooling myself here--it's just a possibility.) But if so, and even if not, I like to get names right.
December 20th, 2007 at 1:00 pm
Playing on the same theme -- effective but underrated pitchers over a (recent) four-year span: Check out Teddy Higuera from 1985-1988.
December 20th, 2007 at 6:06 pm
Answer to #6: Tim Lollar.
http://www.bb-ref.com/pi/shareit/u4UJ