23 Responses to “Farewell Frank Thomas”

1. Gerry Says:
   February 12th, 2010 at 6:59 am

   Concerning surpassing a preceding player with the same name, Ken Griffey comes to mind.

2. Andy Says:
   February 12th, 2010 at 7:46 am

   Well that's sort of a technicality but you're right. It's not as if the same can be said for Pete Rose.

3. DavidRF Says:
   February 12th, 2010 at 10:02 am

   When I think of MLB players with the same name, I think of George Burns:

   http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/burnsge01.shtml
   http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/burnsge02.shtml

   They were only born four years apart and were contemporaries (1911-1925 vs 1914-1929). They didn't have All-Star games until 1933, but they both were All-Star caliber. One led the league in runs 5 times and SB's twice while the other led the league in hits twice and won an MVP (although that was in the day that previous winners weren't eligible). They alternated being hitting stars on WS winning teams in 1920 and 1921. How confusing that must have been for fans. I guess it helped that one was in the AL and the other was in the NL.

4. DavidRF Says:
   February 12th, 2010 at 10:13 am

   Back to Frank Thomas. When a player plays so long past his prime its often easy to forget how great that prime was. We should all take a look at his 1991-1997 stats and remember how historically great those years were. No OPS+ worse than 174 over a seven year period. Cobb and Gehrig did that. Williams, Hornsby, Ruth, Mantle and Pujols had better seven-year stretches but all snuck in a sub-170 year in there.

   For seven full seasons, Frank Thomas was inner-circle caliber great.

5. Johnny Twisto Says:
   February 12th, 2010 at 10:28 am

   My memory (which may be wrong) is that Thomas had a lot of foot problems, which I think could be attributed to the tremendous amount of pressure he was putting on his feet. That size also helped him hit for so much power. My point is that it's very difficult to separate the injuries from the talent, as if he just had bad luck in getting hurt so much. A different Frank Thomas who doesn't have so many injuries might not be able to hit ~70 HR in another 300 games.

   David, as someone unfamiliar with the Burnses until 75 years after they played, I've never kept them straight. I was quickly skimming through his wiki to see when "the" George Burns first became nationally known but it's not clear -- he was doing vaudeville at the time the others were still playing ball, but I'm not sure he was yet a celebrity.

6. Kahuna Tuna Says:
   February 12th, 2010 at 12:47 pm

   Another example of a later player surpassing an earlier player of the same (nick)name: Dutch Leonard. Hubert Leonard, a left-handed spitballer, pitched for the Red Sox and Tigers from 1913 to 1925, putting up a record of 138-111 and a 2.77 ERA (114 ERA+) in 2,189 innings pitched. In 1914 he was 19-5 with a 0.96</b) ERA. The Sox won three World Series during this period, although Leonard was away from the team doing war work during the 1918 Series. Dutch I sat out more than two seasons in salary disputes, accused Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker of fixing a game late in 1919 but failed to back up his charges, and later became a millionaire from the wine business in California.

   Right-hander Emil Leonard pitched for 20 years for weak teams (Dodgers 1933-36, Senators 1938-46, Phillies 1947-48, and White Sox 1949-53) in a hitter's era. Even though his teams almost always finished below .500, he finished his career with a 191-181 W-L record. His 3.25 career ERA in 3,218 IP represents a 119 ERA+. The later Dutch was a knuckleballer, a reliever for the Dodgers and Cubs, a starter for the Senators and Phils. Check out his 1948 season: 2.51 ERA, 157 ERA+ . . . 12-17 record.

7. J.R. Says:
   February 12th, 2010 at 1:01 pm

   Frank Thomas was my favorite player growing up. As a 7 year old, I watched Frank in limited action in his first season in 1990. I followed his career and have collected his cards and memorabilia for the last 20 years. It is truly a sad day for all of us fans of the Big Hurt.

   When Randy Johnson retired, the blog gushed with comparisons to HOFers, stats cementing his place in history, and neat anecdotes and stories about him. Now that this future HOFer hangs it up, what is the blog filled with? Stories and comparisons about players with the same name. Really guys? Let's, at least for a day, keep the story on Thomas, and give him his 15 minutes. I have seen some of the best discourses on the web about baseball on this very blog, but today, I'm just disappointed.

   Frank, thanks for a great career. Best player in White Sox history. Here's hoping I can make it to the southside in August when they put your number on the wall with the other greats.

8. Johnny Twisto Says:
   February 12th, 2010 at 1:56 pm

   Kahuna, thanks for that. I'm ashamed to say I don't think I even knew about the second Dutch Leonard. Or if I did hear of him, I must have conflated him with the first. That's quite a good career, wonder how I missed it.

9. Atlas Says:
   February 12th, 2010 at 2:13 pm

   I don't know any neat stories or anecdotes about Frank Thomas, he never played for my hometown team and I wouldn't say he ranks as highly among hitters as Randy Johnson does among pitchers. This may be part of why he doesn't get quite the same treatment that Johnson did.

   But I understand your point, JR. I can't do it myself, but please do add some anecdotes and interesting facts about Thomas; I'd be happy to read them.

10. Steve G Says:
    February 12th, 2010 at 3:45 pm

    there were 2 players named Jim Hunter. 1, a pitcher for the brewers with a career record of 0-5. the other, the famous catfish, one of the most overrated pitchers of all time.
    see a great article:http://www.mlbexpertanalysis.com/blog/?p=33
    thomas also may have been one of the most underrated of all time

11. Andy Says:
    February 12th, 2010 at 5:39 pm

    JT you make a good point as always. It's just like a pitcher with a wicked curve that hurts his shoulder. If he throws it more he will be more effective but have a shorter career (in some cases perhaps.) Had Thomas hit more line drives than long fly balls, perhaps he would have played more games but finished with fewer overall HR.

    This reminds me of how rotator cuff injuries didn't exist before the rotator cuff was recognized by sports physicians. Today it's impossible to pitch with a full tear but back then it was either possible to do, or they didn't have them. It's sort of a Schroedinger-esque paradox.

12. willie Says:
    February 12th, 2010 at 6:21 pm

    Plain and simple,, Frank Thomas was the proto-Pujols: http://yallkiltit.wordpress.com/2010/02/12/the-proto-pujols-frank-thomas-retires/

13. DoubleDiamond Says:
    February 12th, 2010 at 7:02 pm

    Three players named Randy Johnson debuted in the major leagues in the 1980s. In order of debut, they were:

    Randall Stuart Johnson - http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/johnsra03.shtml

    Randall Glenn Johnson - http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/johnsra04.shtml

    Randall David Johnson - http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/johnsra05.shtml

    The last of these three cannot be compared fairly to the other two because he was a pitcher, while the other two were not. I'm still new at this statistics thing, so the only three-decimal places batting percentage that I'm comfortable using as a comparison is batting average (BA). Randall David did have some at-bats in his career, and his regular season average was .125. Randall Stuart hit .244 in parts of two non-consecutive seasons with the White Sox and Twins. The great majority of his games were spent as a DH, incidentally. Randall Glenn, in parts of three seasons with the Braves, had the highest BA of the three Randy Johnsons, .267.

14. DoubleDiamond Says:
    February 12th, 2010 at 7:05 pm

    The Hispanic name pool has fewer possibilities, so I know there have been instances of someone with a Hispanic name surpassing someone else with that name who was considered pretty good himself.

15. DavidRF Says:
    February 12th, 2010 at 8:26 pm

    For *any* duplicate name pairing, I think there are too many to list. Andy's original distinction that both of them be All-Stars is a reasonable way of narrowing the pairs of players down.

16. DavidRF Says:
    February 12th, 2010 at 8:38 pm

    The Indians had two All-Stars named Al Smith. One was a pitcher who was an All-Star in 1943 and the other was an OF-3B who was an All-Star in 1955 and later with the White Sox in 1960. He played on both the 54 and 59 non-Yankee pennant winners (Yankees won every other year between 49 and 64.

    There was a Sam Jones who had some All-Star caliber seasons in the AL in the 10s and 20s. Later in the 50s, Sad Sam Jones pitched in a couple of All-Star games for the Cubs and Giants.

    I'm just scanning common names... likely more.

17. Brooklyn Lou Says:
    February 13th, 2010 at 7:40 am

    There is one facet of Frank Thomas' career I didn't care for- He never liked playing the field, and hence, was just a D/H for over half of his career. The stats are there for sure, a batting title, 2 MVP's, a championship (albeit, he didn't play), 500 homers... but again, he was in reality, just a part time player. Should he get in the HOF? Sure, especially since everyone was juicing up, and he didn't it.

18. Besty Says:
    February 13th, 2010 at 7:15 pm

    Neither really had what you'd call a great career but I find it interesting that there were two MLB players with the seemingly uncommon name of Steve Ontiveros.

19. Jeff James Says:
    February 14th, 2010 at 12:47 am

    I believe there were two Bobby Joneses . . .
    . . . that both played for the Mets . . .
    . . . at the SAME TIME (in 2000)

20. Jeff James Says:
    February 14th, 2010 at 12:48 am

    Somehow, Sandy Alomar Sr. was also an All-Star

21. Jeff James Says:
    February 14th, 2010 at 12:51 am

    If Jose Cruz Jr. could have made the All-Star team in 2001 ...

22. Jeff James Says:
    February 14th, 2010 at 12:56 am

    Both Gary Matthews were All-Stars

23. Tomepp Says:
    February 15th, 2010 at 11:03 am

    JR: I remember one time when Frank Thomas hit a bird with a pitch... oops, never mind. Or how about that time he caused John Kruk to turn around in the batter's box in an All-Star game... Oops, wrong future HoFer again.

    Frank was a quiet guy who simply put up big numbers - year in and year out - throughout the first half of his career. He didn't stir up controversy, and he didn't do "spectacular" stunts, either intentionally (a-la Neon Deion Sanders) or unintentionally (a-la the Big Unit examples above). Quite simply, there aren't that many anecdotes to tell - but I will tell you this: Frank Thomas topped my most wanted players list for my Strat-O-Matic league for over a decade - and I had the likes of Keith Hernandez and John Kruk playing First Base!

    Frank Thomas may not have gotten the media hype of some of his contemporaris, but he had the respect and admiration of true baseball fans everywhere.