Free Substitution
Posted by Steve Lombardi on May 18, 2011
This morning, I heard Nat's manager Jim Riggleman being interviewed on WFAN (Radio in NYC). He brought up an interesting point regarding managing baseball compared to other sports. And, it was that there's no free substitution in baseball like there is in football, basketball, hockey, soccer, etc. Related, in baseball, when you take a player out of the game, it's a final decision. Whereas, in a sport like hoops, you can take a shooter out of the game early if he's cold - and then put him back in the game later (where he might score 35 points). Same thing with a QB or RB in football, etc.
At first blush, when I thought about this, and wondered what would happen in baseball if they allowed free substitution, I envisioned a game where you had specialists like pinch runners, defensive wizards, and left-handed pitchers flying in and out of the game every inning. And, that seems like it would be chaotic. For sure, it would lead to longer games and scorecard nightmares.
In any event, I thought it might be a fun topic for the baseball fanatics here to discuss. What do you think? Should baseball allow free substitution like the other sports? Why?
May 18th, 2011 at 11:10 am
I'm not 100% sure, but I believe that soccer at the higher levels does not permit free substitution -- once you come out of the game, you're out for good.
May 18th, 2011 at 11:15 am
Should baseball allow free substitution?. No.
This is putting the cart before the horse, but ... Free substitution would require a whole set of rules to preserve the sanctity of the batting order, or else it would throw all previous batting records into a cocked hat.
May 18th, 2011 at 11:18 am
Some younger levels have a rule where you can come out of the game once and be put back in, but the 2nd time you're done. Not sure if it would work or if I would even like it at the major league level, but it could be something to try out for a season or so in a lower minor league to see how it works.
May 18th, 2011 at 11:28 am
Baseball substitution decisions are strategic, rather than tactical. The game has become specialized enough. Free substitution of hitters/fielders doesn't bother me near as much as the prospect of shuttling pitchers in and out of the game.
May 18th, 2011 at 11:28 am
Baseball is "turn based" in a way that no other major sport is. As such, the rules for substituion need to be different.
May 18th, 2011 at 11:29 am
In nyc high school baseball there are rules like this. Pinch runners are allowed for catchers and pitchers, as long as the same runner is used all game.
May 18th, 2011 at 11:35 am
It's the batting order that makes baseball different from the other sports you mentioned. The only way free substitution would be feasible is if each player is tied to just one spot in the order for the entire game. Then, I think, you would avoid a lot of the chaos, preserve records, etc. Feel free to have a designated pinch runner for one, but only one, really slow slugger; however, there goes one of your bench players. Same thing if you want to create your own "designated hitters" - one batter, one fielder, one spot in the lineup, two roster spots used up.
As far as the pitchers go, you could institute a separate set of rules, but reluctance to have a pitcher reenter a game to pitch an inning, or for a favorable matchup, after a long layoff may go a long way toward alleviating the chaos factor there.
May 18th, 2011 at 11:40 am
I'm reminded of a Mets game from 1986 in which several players were ejected and, due to a lack of players, Jesse Orosco and Roger McDowell were forced to shift back and forth between pitching and playing the outfield. There was a controversy over whether a pitcher who takes the mound for a second time should get a second set of warmup pitches. I think that if baseball did decide to allow free substitution for pitchers (which I'm sure we all agree will never happen), a pitcher should not get any additional warmup pitches upon reentering the game.
May 18th, 2011 at 11:51 am
@8, ToddWE -- Great timing! I just posted about that game over on the "Pitchers Playing the Outfield" thread; see #10 & 12 here:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/11132
May 18th, 2011 at 11:59 am
I would favor more restrictions on subsitutions, rather than fewer; specifically, restrictions on mid-inning pitching changes.
Bill James ("that man again!") in his Historical Baseball Abstract proposed a set of rules changes to improve the flow and continuity of the game, many of which I favor. Regarding mid-inning pitching changes, James proposed the following:
Each team is allowed to change pitchers in mid-inning:
-- Once per game with no restriction; but thereafter...
-- Only when the pitcher on the mound has allowed at least one run in the inning.
May 18th, 2011 at 12:00 pm
Free substitution would clearly not work. Imagine this:
The Cardinals submit a nominal batting order with Pujols leading off. Pujols leads off with a single. LaRussa has Tyler Green pinch run for Pujols, and has Pujols pinch hit for his #2 hitter. Pujols flies out. Pujols then pinch hits for the #3 hitter...
Talk about a disaster. You could make up some limitations for this, but then you're no longer talking about "free substitution." I think the substitution rules are fine for professional baseball as they are.
For little league, high school, men's league, etc. the rules should be (and are) different.
May 18th, 2011 at 12:00 pm
A few things about baseball that sets it apart from (most) other sports, I think for the better:
1) No free substitution. This results in more judicious handling of the roster.
2) Baseball (and softball) may be the only team sport in which the defensive team has possession of the ball.
3) Aside from the dimensions within the infield, the playing field can have varying dimensions (within reason). Stadiums can have radically different outfield distances/fence heights as well as foul territory, which can impact playing strategy.
4) Baseball has no clock to regulate length of game. An inning is not done until three outs are made. I will admit to thinking 30 seconds between pitches might be a good idea.
All of this should not be interpreted that I feel baseball is a perfect game and should not be tampered with. As great as the game is, there are a few rule changes I would like to see happen:
1) I just mentioned the 30-second pitch clock.
2) Only two pickoff throws to an occupied base per plate appearance. I think this could actually increase runners getting picked off if pitchers managed their allowed throws right.
3) Regarding pitching substitutions, a pitcher cannot be removed during an inning without having allowed a baserunner.
4) Managers could try to circumvent this rule by removing pitchers due to injury. Thus; a player removed from a game due to injury, if it's not serious enough to merit the 15-day DL, would mandate that said player must be held out of the next five games with no roster replacement.
These are simply my thoughts and observations and nothing more. Feel free to comment, advocate, ridicule, flame, or throw your own ideas out there. I'll be listening to the radio; some of our local high school baseball teams are playing for state championships today.
May 18th, 2011 at 12:05 pm
I don't have any special insights to the effect of free substitution on the game, but I am reminded of the apocryphal story of King Kelly jumping off the bench and saying he was in the game in order to catch a pop fly.
May 18th, 2011 at 12:19 pm
Once you substitute for someone in soccer, he is not allowed to re-enter the match.
May 18th, 2011 at 12:21 pm
Soccer most assuredly doesn't have free substitution. You can only make a given number of changes (3 for most top leagues) and once a player is subbed out, he stays out.
It's fascinating that it's Riggleman talking about this -- maybe he just learned that you can't sub people back in and that's why I saw him pinch hit Laynce Nix for Michael Morse (being fully aware that a left-handed reliever was ready in the pen) and then pinch hit Brian Bixler and his candy cane bat for Laynce Nix.
May 18th, 2011 at 12:21 pm
Prior to around 1950 there was a courtesy runner rule in the ML. If a baserunner was injured a substitute runner replaced him and the injured runner could return to the game at the end of the half-inning. Concurrence of the opposing manager was required and he also had a say in who was selected as the pinch-runner. Obviously he selected the slowest runner on the team.
May 18th, 2011 at 12:23 pm
Ah, King Kelly; he who inspired more rule changes than any other.
Regarding the idea of limiting the number of pickoff throws, I'd also want to see lines (hashmarks?) designating the maximum lead a runner could take from the base. Otherwise after two unsuccessful pickoff attempts there would be nothing to keep the runner from just automatically taking the next base.
May 18th, 2011 at 12:24 pm
there is a limit on substitution in the nfl. if a 3rd string QB enters the game before the 4th quarter, the 1st and 2nd string QBs are not allowed to re-enter. not really baseball-related, just throwing it out there.
May 18th, 2011 at 12:34 pm
@Stan Smith you'd still have pitch outs available to you to keep a runner at bay. Also, what would the penalty be for a third pick-off throw? I guess the runner would be awarded the next base?
May 18th, 2011 at 12:49 pm
A pitch out is a ball to the batter, so that's kind of a penalty right there as it always has.
A third pickoff attempt would be a balk. So, yes, the runner would automatically advance.
Speaking of balks someone please answer this for me. Did MLB ever do anything about the play where, on first and third, the pitcher would fake to third then wheel around and fake or throw to first?
May 18th, 2011 at 1:17 pm
FYI, there *IS* a rule about the length of time a pitcher has to deliver the pitch, at least with no runners on base. MLB Official Rules, 8.04 (emphasis mine):
"When the bases are unoccupied, the pitcher shall deliver the ball to the batter within 12 seconds after he receives the ball. Each time the pitcher delays the game by violating this rule, the umpire shall call 'Ball.
"The 12-second timing starts when the pitcher is in possession of the ball and the batter is in the box, alert to the pitcher. The timing stops when the pitcher releases the ball.
"The intent of this rule is to avoid unnecessary delays. The umpire shall insist that the catcher return the ball promptly to the pitcher, and that the pitcher take his position on the rubber promptly. Obvious delay by the pitcher should instantly be penalized by the umpire."
They just don't enforce the rule very often.
May 18th, 2011 at 1:21 pm
Volleyball doesn't have complete free substitution either, you have to go back into the same spot of the rotation that you came out - so the same players can't keep serving or playing at the net.
Football use to have players play both sides of the ball (offense and defense) but now almost no-one does that past high school. Having offensive and defensive players in baseball would not be much different, just an extension of the DH rule. The size of the roster would be the real limiter.
May 18th, 2011 at 1:25 pm
Besides the batting order, the other reason baseball differs from other sports (baseball, football, hockey) is that in the other sports, players need to take a breather - it's too draining physically to stay in the game all the time. Baseball is different - for the most part, players are not physically exhausted to the point where they need to leave the game.
I don't see a real problem with free substitution provided that when a player leaves a game, he can only re-enter the game in the same batting order position. This would effectively mean that pairs of players could freely substitute within a game. Not sure that I like that, but I think it would be a manageable change.
May 18th, 2011 at 1:30 pm
@17, Stan -- "Otherwise after two unsuccessful pickoff attempts there would be nothing to keep the runner from just automatically taking the next base."
I think a "2-pickoff-throw" rule would mean that the pitcher would never make a 2nd pickoff attempt unless he really felt he could pick the runner off.
Also, I don't think the intent of that rule was to prevent the pitcher from throwing to the next base, when the runner is going.
May 18th, 2011 at 1:31 pm
@16 and courtesy runner rule.
Thanks for this tidbit, Richard. Never heard of that rule before.
Do you know if the runner who entered the game as the "courtesy" runner was permitted to subsequently enter the game in another capacity?
May 18th, 2011 at 1:32 pm
Correction to my #24 -- Stan, I thought you were citing Bill James's proposals; I did not realize they were your own. Obviously, it is not for me to say what is the "intent" of your rules.
May 18th, 2011 at 1:35 pm
@Stan Smith, you're right that the pitch out comes with a penalty, but it's another way to keep a runner in check if you could only throw over twice, that's all I was saying.
Also would the pitcher be able to throw to second base after using up his two throws to first? Because after that second throw, the runner would be free to take off whenever without fear of a throw to first (lest a balk be called), so the pitcher would have to be able to throw to second if he reasonably believed the runner to be stealing. You wouldn't be able to limit that or you'd have to have a rule where the runner he couldn't steal until the pitcher started his wind-up.
May 18th, 2011 at 1:48 pm
@25
I believe that the courtesy runner could re-enter the game. I just googled courtesy runner and they gave quite a few examples of courtesy runners. I found out that there us such a thing as courtesy fielders. The article is worth reading
May 18th, 2011 at 2:26 pm
More batting order-type weirdness that could occur: I pinch hit with lefty A to hit off of Righty X who's pitching. You counter by subbing in pitcher Y to pitch. I counter by pinch hitting with righty B, at which point you sub in Righty X to pitch again, I pinch hit with lefty A, and we get an endless loop.
I mean, you can already to this from the pitching side, but one of the guys is going to be in the field (not pitching) if you do, which seems a fair enough disadvantage, and on the hitting side you're going to run out of hitters pretty quick due to roster size.
Regarding the game with so many ejections, could you get to the point where you only have 8 fielders at a given time? I imagine that when that vacant spot in the lineup came up, it would just be an automatic out.
I know that there was at least one basketball game one time (I think on the college level in like the '60s) where, due to fouling out, one of the teams ended up with only one player on the court. And they won - he had to inbound the ball off of the other team, but he was able to hold out well enough (and they had a big enough lead to start with and there was little enough time left) to maintain a victory. Totally crazy.
May 18th, 2011 at 3:09 pm
Albert Pujols with free substitution in a 162 game season:
4,000 at-bats
385 home runs
390 runs scored
1,200 RBI
May 18th, 2011 at 3:16 pm
@12 Stan - Adding to your list, two more things that really set baseball apart:
- When a team scores, it remains on offense. The other team does not automatically gain "possession," as in basketball or, basically, in football; the ball isn't even up for grabs, as in hockey. Volleyball comes close, in that the scoring team maintains serve, but in baseball, rallies last as long as the offensive team can sustain them, without any chance for the other team to score.
- The managers and coaches wear the same uniforms as the players. I absolutely love this about baseball. Not a suit, not even a sweater vest; everyone from Don Mattingly to Connie Mack looks like they might grab a bat or start taking grounders at any time. This must be a holdover from the age of player-managers, and I don't know if other sports used to do the same, but who cares? Go baseball!
May 18th, 2011 at 3:34 pm
@12 Stan,
Also, let's not forget baseball is an individual sport disguised as a team sport.
May 18th, 2011 at 3:38 pm
Adding to what Todd WE said in his bullet point about baseball managers/coaches wearing the same uniforms as the players. I remember a Boston Bruins hockey game in the late 70s when Bruins coach Don Cherry was tossed out by the referee (a rare occurence in hockey) and Bruins veteran goalie Gerry Cheevers, who was the back up that night, took over behind the bench in full uniform, mainly because in those days NHL coaches had no bench assistants like they do today. It was quite a sight to see the partially balding Cheevers in full uniform and all that bulky goalie equipment and skates roaming around behind the bench. If memory servces me correctly the Bruins went on to win that game.
May 18th, 2011 at 3:46 pm
@31
Connie Mack wore a suit when he managed. He was not allowed to leave the dugout for the playing field. Burt Shotton, who managed the Dodgers in 1947, also wore a suit.
May 18th, 2011 at 3:48 pm
Following up more, other sports have had player/coaches - Bill Russell won a bunch of (9?) titles under Red Auerbach (I know I butchered that spelling) and then won (2?) more under himself.
And saying that these uniforms are a holdover... it wasn't THAT long ago that Pete Rose was a player/manager, was it?
May 18th, 2011 at 3:49 pm
Courtesy Runners...
http://www.retrosheet.org/courtesy.htm
May 18th, 2011 at 3:53 pm
So you couldn't have free substitution clearly, but what if players who were taken out had to stay out for, I don't know, a full inning? You could still pull a lot of lineup shenanigens, but it would actually take someone with a decent statistical background to figure out when to do them to make it all worth it. Probably this is still going to increase the number of PAs of the best hitters by 50%, and just totally warp the game, but at least it's a little more plausible.
May 18th, 2011 at 4:05 pm
"The managers and coaches wear the same uniforms as the players. I absolutely love this about baseball. "
Back in 1985, I worked with a guy who was a huge football Giants fan and he knew that I was a baseball nut. And, he would get on me about baseball managers and coaches stuffing themselves into uniforms. He used to say "You don't see Bill Parcells on the sidelines wearing pads, a helmet and a jersey as he's calling plays!"
The difference, I would always remind him, is that, in baseball, the coaches are on the field of play - coaching 1st and 3rd base. And, in the past managers would often coach 3rd base too. And, that's why they are in uniform, so that the baserunners can realize they are on the same team, when being coached on the bases. In football, basketball. hockey, etc., the coaches and managers are not on the playing field with the players - they're on the sidelines or on the bench.
May 18th, 2011 at 4:10 pm
@30
Just imagine the type of contract Pujols could demand if he could be played like that.
I think, a player should be able to sub back into the game if he is replaces a player that got injured. The legitimacy of the injury could be the umpire's discretion, and the player coming out injured could obviously not return.
May 18th, 2011 at 4:23 pm
People have mentioned soccer.
Please, let's stay on the subject of sports, not playground exercise.
May 18th, 2011 at 4:23 pm
First of all, I thought it was pretty common in High School to allow the starters to re-enter the game, which meant they could be sub for any reason, ph, pr, defense for as long as the manager wanted but the player who started the game could re-enter the game in the same batting order position 1 time. If he was taken out a 2nd time he was out for the game. This does not count courtesy running for pitchers and catchers which was also allowed. It was commonly used to remove a player to warm up to pitch and then re-enter and pitch.
Second, free substitution would be terrible in baseball because baseball is the ultimate team sport because you dont get to choose who is up with the bases loaded in the bottom of the 9th, whereas every other sport you can always just give the ball to your best player.
May 18th, 2011 at 4:35 pm
@38
Suppose managers were required to wear suits and also allowed to come onto the playing field. Wouldn't it be kind of strange to see Billy Martin come onto the field wearing a jacket and tie and shined shoes and kick dirt onto the umpire's shoes?
May 18th, 2011 at 4:42 pm
Let's try limited re-entry rules in Spring Training.
Let's start with a few rules that would have saved an All Star Game from ending up in a tie, because the "managers" were just using Little League rules: "everybody gets to play."
Any pitcher who already appeared in the game, can re-enter after one inning. But if he does, he cannot play a field position. This preserves the possibility that the manager might run out of players and force a forfeit.
No free substitution is allowed in extra innings.
Players can re-enter only at their previous slot in the batting order; field position can be changed. Starters cannot re-enter until after their replacement has been at-bat at least once. (This prevents the manager from using "designated fielders" who never go to bat.)
A pinch-runner can be used more than once, but only for players who occupy the same slot in the batting order. (Harry Chiti gets a single. Lou Brock pinch-runs for him. Next time through the order, Ernie Lombardi pinch-hits for Chiti and gets a single. Brock pinch-runs again. Harry Chiti re-enters the game, gets another single. Brock pinch-runs again. Brock then plays left field, and a new catcher goes in at another slot in the batting order. Lombardi and/or Chiti can re-enter the game, but only at their original batting order slot and that takes Brock out of the game for good. Neither Lombardi or Chiti, however, can be used as a pinch-runner. As you can see, the manager will have to be cautious about how he uses Lou Brock, because using Lombardi and Chiti in a double-steal situation becomes impossible.)
Shuffling players around among defensive positions stays as it is now, anybody on the field can trade places with anybody any time.
May 18th, 2011 at 4:48 pm
@splint chesthair. A steal attempt is baserunner's discretion and current rules would apply, depending whether or not the pitcher is on the rubber. On a separate post I included that a "lead line" not directly on the basepath would prevent a runner from taking an obscene lead.
Honestly I believe that, had these rules been in effect, Andy Pettitte may have actually doubled his number of pickoffs. These proposed rules seem like they would give baserunners an enhanced sense of security. Against a lefty with a great move to first, that would prove lethal.
May 18th, 2011 at 4:50 pm
@34.
"Connie Mack wore a suit when he managed. He was not allowed to leave the dugout for the playing field."
That sounds weird. If he's the manager, what difference does it make what he's wearing?
May 18th, 2011 at 4:53 pm
@cheese. No argument here. So's basketball. Volleyball, soccer, football, hockey, all depend on everyone doing their part to a greater capacity. Football does have more than their fair share of prima donnas though.
May 18th, 2011 at 5:11 pm
@JA No. 1 ... right on soccer ... In FIFA rules, there's three allowed substitutions, period, and a person replaced cannot come back in. And, in the case of injury, if you've already used your three substitutes, you're SOL.
In general, I loathe the idea.
Specifically, think of how long many games, especially in the AL, already take. You want five-hour baseball in a regular basis?
@JA further down ... maybe your pitching substitution restriction would speed up current games.
May 18th, 2011 at 5:16 pm
At least my thoughts on baseball rule changes aren't extreme. In basketball I'd love to see the penalty box and power play from hockey incorporated and free throws eliminated.
As far as Bill James' ideas go, he threw some out there that were ridiculous. Altering distances between bases. Altering distance to the pitching rubber. Got to have just a wee bit of stability there, Bill.
May 18th, 2011 at 5:38 pm
@48, Stan -- I don't know which Bill James proposals you're referring to. I was talking about the ones in the Historical Baseball Abstract, which absolutely did not include any such fundamental alterations as the pitching distance or basepath distance. He may have made the suggestions you mentioned, but I never read of them.
In the BJHBA, he proposed 6 changes:
(1) Limit the number of pickoff throws.
(2) No batter timeout except extraordinary cirumstances.
(3) 90 seconds between innings (instead of 2 minutes).
(4) Minimum circumference of bat handle, phased in gradually.
(5) Move batters box away from home plate by 4 inches, phased in gradually.
(6) Limit mid-inning pitching changes.
May 18th, 2011 at 6:12 pm
I have read everything James has in print, except for his first 4 or 5 seasonal abstracts and have never read anywhere about his calling for changing the distance between bases or to the rubber. Was this something on this website?
May 18th, 2011 at 6:16 pm
I have played and coached in leagues with re-entry subsitution and courtesy runners. Those types of rules offend the sportsman in me. MLB's present practice of substitution gives our game an "all-in" element.
I would also fear for the pitchers. Some amateur pitchers have suffered arm injuries after pitching both ends of doubleheaders. Unlimited substitution on could put a start-top-start strain on high-priced arms.
May 18th, 2011 at 6:47 pm
Reduce the freeness of substitution in the AL, expand it in the NL so the leagues meet in the middle. New rule for both leagues in lieu of the current DH: One pinch hitter per team per game may return later in the game for one (but only one) additional PA, in the same spot in the batting order he used earlier.
May 18th, 2011 at 7:02 pm
The real problem is that you wouldn't have "substitution" AT ALL. Basically, you're 3-4 worst hitters (along with the Pitcher in the N.L.) would simply NEVER hit.The teams would effectively end up with 4-5 DH's in the order, a mostly different set of men on the field, with maybe some of the weaker hitters (other than the Cather, LOL) running for those DH's once they were on base.
For a minute there I though Pitching might be affected in a similar way, but then I realized that most Pitchers, once they come out, get too cold too fast to go back in an inning or two later. So for the most part? (except the LH specialists maybe?) It wouldn't be affected. (And even then - how many times can a guy go up-down-up-down-up anyway? Maybe once, but I'm thinking he's shot the second time he comes BACK into the game.)
In any case, I'm one of those who's inclined to look at those things that set baseball apart form other sports as the things that MAKE IT GREAT.
May we never, ever even CONSIDER this!
May 18th, 2011 at 7:27 pm
Unless a rule was made against this teams could hit one guy over and over, pinch running for him after a single and inserting him into the next lineup spot. It would become unbelievably specialized.
May 18th, 2011 at 7:45 pm
Since were discussing substitution rules:
About a year and a half ago, I posted an assumption about substitution rules for pitchers, but received no definitive answer. Does anybody know?
It was a personal theory that I used to explain a seemingly impossible substitution. I still don't know if it is correct. Can anybody tell me?
May 18th, 2011 at 8:43 pm
@55: The pitcher in a DH game can only replace the DH on offense. At which point, the right to use the DH is abandoned for the rest of the game.
Volleyball substitution rules (mid-'90s): A player may enter a game 3 times, but only in the same position in the serving order. Any number of players may play in that position in the serving order. Starting the game counts as an entry. A team is allowed 12 substitutions per game. An abnormal substitution is permitted due to an injured player, but in some rules systems, a player replaced by an abnormal substitution may not return to the game.
Now, Volleyball has a libero, who plays back row (defense) only and can replace any player as many times as wanted, but there is only one libero allowed per team per match (there's talk of a second, with one change in libero per match permitted). Libero replacement is not considered a substitution, occurs in a different location on the court, and does not require recognition from the officials before play resumes. In international play, the libero may not serve; in US play, the libero may serve in one position per game only.
Similar to the managers wearing a uniform in baseball, the playing captain in volleyball has the right to request alignment check, timeout, substitution, etc., just as the coach does.
Back to baseball, one proposal I have heard : If a pitcher is replaced after facing one batter (or other L-R-L changes mid-inning), the replacement is not allowed any warm-up pitches before facing the new batter.
May 18th, 2011 at 8:51 pm
@JA 49, I would totally agree to 90 secs instead of 2 min between innings, but Bud, owners and players won't, for commercial reasons.
I agree with the rest of James' ideas except a limit on pickoff throws. That's just dumb. Can't believe someone like him would suggest it.
Let's say you're Rickey Henderson and you "bait" five, or whatever the limit is, of pickoff throws. After that, you've got a free pass to second.
May 18th, 2011 at 9:47 pm
I think I would add an injury substitution. I hate games that may go to extras, and "You can't use Smith to pinch hit, he's the reserve catcher". It seems mostly held to catchers, though they likely do get hurt the most of fielders.I'd say, if the player comes out, he is ineligible for 3 games. You can keep him on the roster if you want, but he can't play. Of course, if he goes to the DL, his spot becomes immediately active
May 18th, 2011 at 10:19 pm
My son plays in a 14 yr old Babe Ruth league and most games have all 12 players bat, order does not change, and there is free substitution except once you have been removed from pitching you can't pitch again. Also, a player can't go directly from playing catcher to pitcher for some reason, maybe time to get the gear off and a new catcher suited up. Anyway, works great, allows for all the kids to play and try different positions.
May 18th, 2011 at 10:28 pm
@57, Socratic -- Re: a limit on number of pickoff throws --
First, let me correct my incomplete description of James's idea. To be precise, he proposed that a team be allowed two unsuccessful throws to a base per inning, and any further unsuccessful throws would count as balls. There would be nothing to stop a pitcher from trying to pick off a runner with a huge lead, as long as he was willing to risk being charged with a ball if the pickoff failed.
With that out of the way, let me ask: If this kind of "soft" limit on pickoff throws were enacted, isn't it likely that pitchers would adapt their pickoff strategy to avoid reaching that limit? Right now, with no limit, pitchers throw whenever they want, usually with no hope of actually picking off the runner. Pitchers have no incentive to ration their pickoff throws, to use them only when they actually have a chance of a pickoff.
But if they did have such incentive, they would adjust. Let's face it, most runners on first aren't going anywhere; the main purpose of their lead is for advancement on batted balls. Pitchers would learn to live with bigger leads. They'd save their pickoff throws for base-stealers with aggressive leads.
And that would be a good thing.
May 18th, 2011 at 10:54 pm
[...] Free Substitution » Baseball-Reference Blog » Blog Archive [...]
May 18th, 2011 at 10:54 pm
Meanwhile ...
-- The Phillies won tonight, scratching out 2 runs with 5 singles and no walks. They've gone 5 straight games without reaching 6 hits, which is a franchise high in the expansion era. The franchise record in the searchable era is 6, in 1959. That club -- which featured Sparky Anderson playing almost every day at 2B in his lone season in the bigs -- finished last at 64-90, last in scoring and last in all 3 slash stats. NO, I am not by any stretch of the imagination suggesting that such a fate awaits this year's edition. (But I can dream, can't I?)
-- The Mets notched their first team shutout of the year. The Royals are the only team left that has not yet had a shutout.
-- The continued evolution of Charlie Morton: Last year, the tall Pirates righty slogged through a 2-12 season with a 7.57 ERA. Tonight, he tossed a CG shutout against the 1st-place Reds, who lead the NL in scoring. It was Morton's 2nd CG of the year, and raised his record to 5-1, 2.62.
-- They Yanks and O's play on in Baltimore, now in the 12th inning, with identical lines of 1-9-1. Of the 18 hits so far, 17 have been singles. (I may be onto a trend for this season. See if you can spot it...)
-- Boston over Detroit, 1-0. White Sox nip Cleveland, 1-0. Mets get past Nats, 3-0. Pirates drop Reds, 5-0. Brewers-Padres scoreless in the 3rd, ditto Giants-Dodgers. Yanks-O's knotted at 1, now heading for the 13th. Texas-KC tied at 2 in the 9th. All 30 teams were in action, but just two have scored more than 5 runs (with 5 games still in the early innings).
May 18th, 2011 at 10:59 pm
I think they mentioned during the telecast the Yanks do not have a shutout either
May 18th, 2011 at 11:12 pm
@JA. Have you read The Mind Of Bill James: How A Complete Outsider Changed Baseball by Scott Gray? It's a biography/set of interviews/personality profile which, more than anything, leaves the reader with the knowledge that James might not be the easiest person with which to get along. At one point Gray and James discuss liberalism and conservatism in regards to the uniformity of stadiums. That's where James starts going off on a tangent about infield dimensions. The book is an interesting read but some parts leave you shaking your head.
The rule changes James proposed in the second edition of The Historical Baseball Abstract are kind of a mixed bag. The most sensible thing he mentioned actually was training the umpires to not call time for the hitters unless there is a valid reason. That's really gotten out of hand this season. I don't know how many times already I've seen umpires wait until the pitcher starts his delivery to call time for the hitter. Maybe there needs to be a rule for substituting umpires who call time excessively.
May 18th, 2011 at 11:15 pm
@62
" (I may be onto a trend for this season. See if you can spot it...)
I think I have the trend, JA. No juice, no XBH. 🙂
Seriously, run-scoring is down.... duh!
Hey, JA, you missed Tampa Bay scoring 6 runs on 5 opposition errors.
May 18th, 2011 at 11:35 pm
@64, Stan Smith -- No, I have not read that book, but if you're sure he said those things therein, I believe you.
I'm not surprised that James comes across as not the easiest person to get along with; you can sense his crotchetiness in some of his writings. Though I cite him a lot, I don't worship at his altar; I just think he's had some great original thoughts and generally written them in a clear, engaging and very entertaining way. I have disagreed with his views at times; he's published a few half-baked notions and even factual inaccuracies among the rest of the gems.
May 18th, 2011 at 11:36 pm
@65, Neil -- I did miss that ... and seeing who the "opposition" was, you have my condolences on the sloppy play, as well as the fact that the game ended with Joey Bats on deck.
May 18th, 2011 at 11:59 pm
@67
Thank you, JA. Yes, Joey Bats has so little around him in the lineup.
He was walked twice with a runner on 1B to get to Aaron Hill, once semi-intentionally and once outright intentionally. Hill made an out both times.
Tidy effort by the Mets tonight! Congratulations!
May 19th, 2011 at 1:52 am
I would like a free subscription.
May 19th, 2011 at 6:23 am
One last post on this thread. The idea from Bill James about altering the distance between the bases co
mes from the book The Mind Of Bill James, in the chapter called Moving
The Curve and is on pages 190 to 192.
May 19th, 2011 at 7:00 am
@Raphy #55: (sorry, Stan, but I'm hours behind most of you guys, and I worked way late tonight....*sighs*) I think the most surprising part, of your story, is that Dave Kingman singled!
May 19th, 2011 at 9:42 am
@29,
"More batting order-type weirdness that could occur: I pinch hit with lefty A to hit off of Righty X who's pitching. You counter by subbing in pitcher Y to pitch. I counter by pinch hitting with righty B, at which point you sub in Righty X to pitch again, I pinch hit with lefty A, and we get an endless loop."
As the rules are today, each pitcher must pitch to at least 1 batter.
May 19th, 2011 at 10:49 am
@70, Stan -- Thanks for the pinpoint citation.
May 19th, 2011 at 12:25 pm
As comment #54 said, "..teams would effectively end up with 4-5 DH's in the order, a mostly different set of men on the field, with maybe some of the weaker hitters running for those DH's once they were on base. "
Sounds an awful lot like football a half-century ago, when it gradually over decades went from a sport of players that played both ways to separate offensive and defensive players.
May 19th, 2011 at 12:43 pm
JA-
If you limit pickoffs, don't you just give runners a green light to take off while the pitcher is standing on the moud if he has exhausted his pickoffs?
A baserunner could basically get the biggest lead possible, one that would give him an incredible shot at stealing the base but is also safe enough that he can dive back in a couple times (repeated times eventually take a toll and will lead most runners to shorten up); he'll draw a few throws and then just take a walking lead and never stop as he moseys on down to 2nd.
May 19th, 2011 at 12:45 pm
JA-
Just saw post #60. Thanks for clarifying. I still think it would lead to some madness, but not as much as I initially thought. Another consequence would be 1B not holding runners on (or not as often), which likely would increase defensive effeciency. Maybe this is a tradeoff that teams should make anyway, given what we know about the limited benefit of stolen bases? Let guys take a big lead, but position your 1B to actually make a play!
May 19th, 2011 at 9:51 pm
I have not read ALL of the above posts, so forgive any duplication here... but isn't the DEE-AICHE an example of free substitution?
If so then we already have this in place in American League baseball.
May 19th, 2011 at 11:08 pm
@77 - No, the DH is not an example of free substitution. If I have ... Frank Thomas and Barry Bonds on my team and I start Bonds at DH, I cannot sub in Thomas when Jesse Orosco comes to the mound and then re-sub in Bonds when Nolan Ryan comes to the mound. Once Bonds is taken out of the game he is out of the game and is not allowed back in.
That is the definition of free substitution being used.
May 20th, 2011 at 12:13 pm
As a Phillies fan it's not a bad idea as we had Cliff Lee pinch hitting with a guy on base last night!
http://www.baseballcomeback.blogspot.com/