30 Responses to “Duke Snider, Passes At 84”

1. Paul Drye Says:
   February 27th, 2011 at 5:18 pm

   I'll miss him -- he was the radio broadcaster for the Expos when I was a kid growing up in Montreal.

   It still astonishes me that, of the center fielders for New York teams in the early 1950s, he was the third best. I wonder what kind of player you'd get if you combined the worst season of the three each year for each player. I bet Mickey "Duke" Mays would still make the Hall of Fame.

   (In fact, I'm off to play that game right now in memoriam)

2. larry seltzer Says:
   February 27th, 2011 at 5:35 pm

   Do you have a sortable ranking for HR at home % with a minimum, maybe 100 or 200 HR?

3. Paul Drye Says:
   February 27th, 2011 at 5:37 pm

   OK, that's funny. Good as Snider was, his is the worst season of the three for all the years that they were in the league together (1951-64) except for '51 (when it was Mantle) and '52-'53, and '56 (when it was Mays -- he was in the Army the middle of the three).

   Because their careers don't quite overlap, 'Mickey "Duke" Mays' only plays for 14 years (thirteen, actually, because of the Korean War) and isn't a HOFer, but he's a fine player: .288/.380/.537, with 266 HR. He was definitely hurt by playing in LA and the 60s the back part of his career, plus he got injured quite a lot later on.

4. John Q Says:
   February 27th, 2011 at 6:12 pm

   Snider's 2nd half of Snider's career ended oddly in that from 1958-1964 he was essentially a part-time player. He only had two seasons with more than 400+ plate appearances in those 7 seasons.

   There's not many pictures available but it's also odd to see Snider as a member of the 1964 SF Giants.

5. DavidRF Says:
   February 27th, 2011 at 6:13 pm

   224/183 is a fairly favorable split, but its not too crazy. Mel Ott had a 323/188 split (and I love Mel Ott, no offense to him).

   All that gets worked into his park factors. Ebbetts had higher BPF's than either the Polo Grounds or Yankee Stadium and his OPS+'s are quite impressive.

6. David Huemer Says:
   February 27th, 2011 at 6:27 pm

   @5 Ott is the all time leader for HRs in one park.

7. Andy Patton Says:
   February 27th, 2011 at 6:35 pm

   RIP Snider. He was a great autograph signer through the mail for his fans. I had wanted to write to him for a while, but apparently he had been sending a letter back with his fans telling them he was getting too old to keep signing for everyone. I respected his wishes and never sent to him, even though I knew he would have responded up until the moment he passed. Great man, baseball will miss him.

8. Drew Says:
   February 27th, 2011 at 7:14 pm

   My favorite tidbit about the Duke is that he is the home run leader for the entire decade of the 1950s.

   http://www.baseball-reference.com/play-index/season_finder.cgi?type=b#ajax_result_table::none

9. Drew Says:
   February 27th, 2011 at 7:15 pm

   Oops, retry.

   http://bbref.com/pi/shareit/F3ETP

10. Doug Says:
    February 27th, 2011 at 8:10 pm

    @4 and John's mention of the '64 Giants. I always think of their 7 hour, 23-inning game againts the Mets that year, in the 2nd half of a doubleheader (at least it wasn't the first half - can you imaging getting ready to play a 2nd game after a marathon like that).

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/NYN/NYN196405312.shtml

    Snider had only a pinch-hit appearance in this game. But there were some eye-catching stats. Like Mays going 1 for 10, and playing shortstop for 3 innings. And poor Tom Haller who caught all 23 innings. The first game catcher, Del Cranfall, was on the bench the whole game until pinch-hitting in the 23rd and driving in the go-ahead and winning run. I guess manager Al Dark knew exactly what he was doing, even if Haller probably didn't appreciate it at the time.

11. John Q Says:
    February 27th, 2011 at 8:16 pm

    Doug,

    Good points!

    Here's a photo from the '64 season with Mays & Snider that looks like it was taken in some alternate universe:

    http://www.corbisimages.com/Enlargement/U1420882.html

12. Atom Says:
    February 27th, 2011 at 8:30 pm

    Look at Duke Snider's year by year stats. Then look at Jim Edmonds year by year stats. Also, remember that Edmonds was a considerably better fielder and try to explain why so many people seem appalled at the notion of Edmonds in the hall of fame.
    Duke was an all time great who's legacy was somewhat diminished by being a contemporary of Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle. Had he played in any other era, he would be remembered for exactly how great he really was.

13. Doug Says:
    February 27th, 2011 at 8:39 pm

    @11. That is a weird photo, John. Snider looks half-way normal, but Mays seems to be going out of his way to mimic Duke's pose. Probably just having some laughs.

    Another thought about that Mets game. Catcher Crandall has just pinch-hit to drive in the go-ahead run. And, then, you don't keep him in the game to relieve the absolutely exhausted Haller with a chance to wrap things up in the bottom of the inning? I guess Dark was getting a little tired by then, just like everyone else.

14. John Q Says:
    February 27th, 2011 at 9:04 pm

    Doug,

    LOL!, I didn't even notice Mays' face the first time I saw that photo. Mays looks like a crazy person in that photo.

15. StephenH Says:
    February 27th, 2011 at 9:23 pm

    John Q, thanks for posting a great photo!

16. steven Says:
    February 27th, 2011 at 10:57 pm

    When I started following baseball in about 1965, Mantle was about done, Mays was MVP, and Snider was the Grecian Formula guy on TV commercials...Since then, I've learned that he was a pretty good ballplayer, too.

17. Jimbo Says:
    February 27th, 2011 at 11:44 pm

    Why don't Bonds or Aaron's combined numbers add up to their carer totals? I didn't check any other players but both of those guys are missing about 70 homers each.

18. Doug Says:
    February 27th, 2011 at 11:56 pm

    @12. Atom, I took up your challenge.

    Side-by-side, Snider and Edmonds do look similar, as evidenced by their 900 similarity scores. Edmonds does have about 40% more strikeouts than Snider in almost the same ABs. That is significant since Snider himself struck out quite a bit, especially for his era.

    Biggest differences (at a glance):
    - Gold Gloves: 8 vs. 0 for Edmonds (caveat: there were no Gold Gloves until 1957, Snider's last truly full-time season)
    - All-star selections: 8 vs. 4 for Snider
    - MVP Top 10s: 6 vs. 2 for Snider
    - Black/Gray ink: Snider, hands down
    - HOF Monitor/Standards: Snider, hands down

    So, why the big difference in results and recognition given the similar stats? Probably biggest reason is the difference between a 16 team and a 30 team universe. Edmonds has more competition. Also, aside from his season with the Mets, Snider played for good (and glamorous) teams his whole career. Edmonds also played for good teams in St Louis, but it's not quite the same as the Dodgers, and Edmonds only made it to 2 World Series, compared to 6 for Snider.

    One other thing to remember. It took a long time for Snider to make it to the hall, even with the credentials he had. If Edmonds does make it, I expect it will also be a long time coming.

19. Thomas Says:
    February 28th, 2011 at 12:12 am

    @17... are you sure you're adding correctly? Just I just took a look and they both seem fine...

20. DavidRF Says:
    February 28th, 2011 at 3:27 am

    @17,@19
    Looks like he summed the games column and not the HR column. The descrepancy would be multi-homer games.

21. Tmckelv Says:
    February 28th, 2011 at 9:06 am

    Duke Snider was my Dad's favorite player. RIP.

22. Lawrence Azrin Says:
    February 28th, 2011 at 11:02 am

    What's interesting about Duke Snider and the HOF is that Snider is pretty much the dividing line for center fielders being elected by the BBWAA to the HOF. If you're better than him (Cobb, Speaker, Dimaggio, Mantle, Mays), you're elected; if you are worse than him, you have to be selected by the Veteran's Committee to get in the HOF (Ashburn, Averill, Carey, etc...).

    The only exception to this is Kirby Puckett. Puckett clearly belongs in the level below Snider, but it looks like some writers credited Puckett with the decline phase his sudden retirement wiped out. Even with Snider's early thirties decline, due to injuries and his home park in LA hurting him, he ranks in the Top-100 in career WAR (67.5) for all players. Puckett is #325 (44.8), surrounded by HOF-center field Veteran's picks such as Earl Combs, Earl Averill, Larry Doby, and Edd Roush.

    Billy Hamilton is the only other CFer as good as Snider not elected by the BBWAA, but hardly any 19th century guys got elected by the writers.

    As many people here have commented on in the past, the writers have a higher standard for CFers, expecting them to be just as good offensively as corner outfielders, but giving them little or no credit for increased defensive value.

23. Soundbounder Says:
    February 28th, 2011 at 11:11 am

    Some great tributes to Snider today in the Los Angeles and New York Times.

24. Gary W Says:
    February 28th, 2011 at 11:21 am

    Duke Snider was my first baseball hero. I saw him play at the Coliseum and at Dodger Stadium. He hit the first big-league home run that I ever saw. RIP Duke.

25. John Q Says:
    February 28th, 2011 at 2:43 pm

    Lawrence A,

    Good analysis on Center Fielders and the HOF.

    Essentially Snider is the dividing line between admission by the BBWAA or the Veteran's committee. It's going to be interesting what happens with Edmonds & Lofton who were basically on the same level as Snider. Edmonds & Lofton really should be in the HOF but they probably won't get much support.

    The Veteran's committee hasn't elected a CF in long time. I think Ritchie Ashburn was the last one around 1995.

    Jimmy Wynn is the only clear omission that I can think of as far as Center Fielders go in the HOF. Then There's about 6-7 borderline CF, W. Davis, Cedeno, Pinson, Lemon, Lynn, Burks, Murphy & B. Williams.

    It's going to be interesting to see how active players like A. Jones, Beltran, Damon & M. Cameron finish their careers.

26. Mets Maven Says:
    February 28th, 2011 at 2:49 pm

    Mets fans will mourn the Duke as a former Met as well as a Brooklyn Dodgers great. In fact, we lost another old-time Mets this weekend--Greg Goossen.

27. Jim Dunne Says:
    February 28th, 2011 at 3:50 pm

    @#25

    I think by including Damon and Cameron you may be putting all of your emphasis on career value, and not looking enough at peak value. Snider had 6 seasons of 5.0+ WAR, Lofton had 6 and Edmonds had 7. Damon only has 1 such season, and while Cameron has 3, most of that is in defensive value, which the Hall has never emphasized for outfielders as Lawrence pointed out. Honestly, now that both are in their late 30's I don't see them sticking around to get their career WAR into the high 60's where the others reside. Damon would have to basically be a pitching version of Don Sutton and play long enough to get 3000 hits. Cameron won't make it to year two on the ballot, and considering that right now he's tied with Fred Lynn for career WAR, that's pretty reasonable.

    Beltran has 5 such seasons, and Andruw Jones has 7, but both may fall victim to the bias against players who peaked early rather than late. Beltran may have a comeback in him, which could make him a borderline argument, but by the time Andruw Jones gets on the ballot, he'll be somwhere around 12-15 years removed from his last good season, depending on how long he sticks around. Add in the facts that much of Jones' value was in defense, and the controversies that he would find himself involved in (Gold Club, late career weight gain), I don't see him making it.

28. Lawrence Azrin Says:
    February 28th, 2011 at 4:17 pm

    #25/... John Q Says: "Lawrence A, Good analysis on Center Fielders and the HOF..."

    Thanks John, what is interesting is all the CFers better than Snider the BBWAA elected (with the notable exception of Puckett) are all-time greats. It's as if you have to be a "no-brainer" to be elected by the writers as a centerfielder. For example, Dale Murphy is probably as good or better than at least half of CFers selected by the Veteran's, but peaked @23.2% in his 2nd year on the ballot. Snider is Murphy's 3rd "most similar" batter, BTW, Edmonds 5th.

    Jimmy WYNN - his stats got KILLED by:
    -playing much of his prime in the Astrodome
    - the second "deadball era"
    - having a lot of his value in high BB totals

    He's probably the best player to get _0_ HOF votes (along w/Cecil Cooper, Mike Cuellar ). He's a decent HOF candidate, but I'd put Jim Edmonds, Dale Murphy, and maybe Vida Pinson ahead of him. Why? - as #27/jim said, you can't judge strictly by career value and ignore the peak performance.

29. Martin M Solomon Says:
    February 28th, 2011 at 5:53 pm

    MULTIPLE ALLSTARS FROM SAME CITY: As a New Yorker growing up in 1950s, albeit a Yankees fan, I recognized there was something extraordinary about having 3 outstanding center fielders in the same city.

    1. While Dodgers and Giants were in NYC, Snider was AS 1950-56. Mays was AS 1954-57. Mantle was AS 1952-57. So in 1954-56 there were 3 AS at same position CF from teams in same city. Had it happened before?

    2. Yes! At shortstop. Reese AS 1946-54, Dark AS 1951-52, Rizzuto AS 1950-53. So 1951 and 52 had 3 AS from NYC @SS.

    3. Near miss in RF with Furillo 1952-53, Mueller 1954-55 and Bauer 1952-54. (Each year 52-54 2 made AS, but always a different pair.)

    4. At first base, had 3 AS in 1950s but never more than 2/year. Hodges 1949-55 and 57, Lockman 1952, Skowron 1957-61. So 2 in 1952 and 2 in 1957.

    5. This is not a complete list. Please add if desired.

    LINKS: Three links to NY Times on Duke Snider:

    1. Obituary:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/28/sports/baseball/28snider.html?ref=sports

    2. Column

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/28/sports/baseball/28anderson.html

    3. Blog with three links:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/01/sports/baseball/01leading.html?ref=sports

    A sad note. Until I read NYT obit, I was not aware of 1995 conviction of Duke Snider and Willie McCovey for failure to declare income from memorabilia shows. Each paid fine and got probation.

30. John Q Says:
    February 28th, 2011 at 7:37 pm

    @Jim Dunne 27,

    I didn't mean to imply that A. Jones, Beltran, Damon & M. Cameron would reach the Snider, Edmonds & Lofton zone, I just said it was going to be interesting to see how they finish their respective careers.

    A few years ago it looked like A. Jones was going to be a solid HOF candidate and then his career just fell off a cliff.

    Beltran was putting together a quiet HOF career by the all star break in 2009. He was 32 in the middle of one of his best seasons and then he got injured. It looked like he had a legitimate shot at 400 HR & 400 SB which only Barry Bonds has accomplished. I think that with his unbelievable sb% plus his Gold Gloves would have made him a solid HOF candidate.

    Cameron has been a very underrated player and will probably end up finishing his career among those other 8 borderline CF I listed.

    Damon probably will finish his career ranked somewhere at the top of those "8" borderline HOF candidates. But what really helps Damon is that he's only 429 hits away from 3000 and he's only about 200 runs scored short of 1775 which would rank him in the Top 20 for runs scored.

    Damon doesn't even have to be "Don Sutton". He just turned 37 so if he averages 140 hits & 70 runs scored the next three years, he could reach those milestones before he's 40. If you want to give him 4 more seasons then he can average about 107 hits & 50 runs scored and hit those marks before his 41st birthday.